Abortion, Pt. 1

John Bradshaw: Welcome to Bible Talk where we talk about the Bible and how the Bible affects us today. I'm John Bradshaw, with me is Gary Gibbs. Gary, we've got another deep subject today.

Gary Gibbs: John, we really do. We have been tackling some really difficult topics. And you know, we have talked before, we have gone on-air here about whether we should go into some of these, because this really hits the heart of some major debates and issues and even personal issues today taking place in western society.

John: Today, we're going to talk about the subject of abortion. Since Roe v. Wade back in the 1970s, there have been somewhere in the area of 40 million abortions performed. I had someone suggest to me one time that abortion is the most commonly performed surgical procedure in the United States. So this is something that's touching a lot of lives.

Gary: Well, actually over 45% of women have had abortions. So that we're looking at nearly 50% of our female audience here John, listening to us today, could likely have had an abortion.

John: Which says to me that if we're going to talk about this at all, we'll need to be as sensitive as we can, as biblical as we can and very prayerful. I know we have been, that the Holy Spirit would minister this few minutes that we talk today on Bible Talk.

Gary: We really need to... My wife is a GYN-OB, she's a midwife, delivers babies at a hospital and she tells me, John, about people who come in, who've had multiple abortions and that she talks to them and she counsels them. This is very detrimental to the woman who's had the abortion and not to mention the man. I once counseled the gentleman as we were studying the Bible together. We're studying the topic of the unpardonable sin, and he started weeping. I said, "Why are you crying?" and he said, "I think I've committed the unpardonable sin." I said, "Tell me about that." He said, "Well, you know, I've got my girlfriend pregnant years ago and I encouraged her to have an abortion. We went down to the abortion clinic, we end it that way and ever since I felt like I committed the unpardonable sin."

John: Well, he didn't commit the unpardonable sin, but we're not going to suggest he didn't commit a sin.

Gary: No and he found forgiveness for that and he was so relieved to realize this was not unpardonable. So our message today must include to all those who've participated in abortion that God understands. He loves you, He can forgive you as you confess but for those who've never done this, it might, somebody might, right now, might be considering aborting a young child's life. They need to really to stop and consider a number of important questions.

John: My study on this subject has revealed that in people who had abortion, depression goes way up. The incidence of drug abuse and substance abuse goes way up. I know a couple myself. Early in their relationship she became pregnant, at his insistence she had an abortion. They were trying to conceive some years later, they just couldn't. They've been trying of a long time and the guilt and the pain and the difficulty that they're going through, they really wished that that abortion hadn't taken place in the first place. It didn't just stand one life but it affected in a very negative way other lives as well.

Gary: Oh, that's something that they have to live with the rest of their life. Now, let me ask you a question John, as we talk about this, there are people listening and in the public debate today, the question is - when does the fetus become a child? I mean, at what point would you say, it would be wrong, morally wrong to abort? Are you looking at a certain trimester? At what point? At conception?

John: What you're asking me here is to play God in a certain way. Although you're asking me...

Gary: What does the Bible say?

John: You're asking me an important question. Figure this thing out because if ever this is going to be done, people do need to answer this question. I remember when my wife was pregnant with our first child, boy I wish I could remember just how far along it was but very early on, we saw this little ultra sound, a little white blob pulsating. There was a heart beating. When there's a heartbeat, there's a life. Now, you'd go back a couple of weeks, perhaps there's no discernible heartbeat, but is there a life? This is Bible Talk; let's see what the Bible says. In Psalm 100:3 it says, "Know ye that the Lord he is God. It is he that hath made us." God has made us, we are the process, the answers, the result of some evolutionary process.

There is an architect of life and of the human body, and that is the God of heaven. Isaiah chapter 44:24, "He that form thee in the womb; that is the Lord your redeemer." God forms us in the womb, when does God form us? Can we accurately answer that question? It seems to me that as soon as that thing becomes, when the two parts meet together and come together and make a whole, you've got life. Haven't you got life?

Gary: Certainly.

John: And if you can't be sure you would not go running ending this thing.

Gary: You know, ultrasound has really changed the way a lot of people have looked at this. I have...

John: Ultrasound has?

Gary: Ultrasound has. I have a, maybe 3D or a 4D ultrasound, I don't know the technical term but it shows my oldest girl who's four years old today. It shows the whole shape of her head, her facial features, her hands, her legs and her feet. It's just like a 3D movie or 4D.

John: You can't look at something like that and say that's not a person.

Gary: That's correct.

John: That's not a life. And abortions are ending lives. The question, when does it begin? The majority of abortions aren't performed in the first week or the second week.

Gary: No.

John: Or the third week. They're performed when hearts are beating and features are forming and there's little doubt that that's a little baby person inside that womb. No question about it. The Bible says, "We are the work of God's hands" and Isaiah chapter 68, sorry, Isaiah chapter 64. If you find Isaiah 68, I guess you better get a new Bible. Psalm 139, "You formed my inward parts," Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in the womb." And don't we have the account of John the Baptist leaping in his mother's womb?

Gary: In Luke 1:41, that's right. When Mary greeted Elizabeth, he leapt in her womb.

John: It's interesting when the protagonist or the promoters of abortion speak. They're talking about... Well, we need this in the case of rape and incest. You know, I was little surprised given all of the publicity to this that 1% or less of all abortions happen due to rape or incest. Now, that's still a lot but 1% dictating what happens in the 100%, I think I want to point out too that. A pregnancy that comes about as a result of rape or incest, I know there are some terrible things that's happened there, there's tragedy that is taking place. Isn't that right?

Gary: That's right.

John: That's not a good thing anyway. You stack it up but it seems to me that to say the way to fix that problem is to end a life. That's a very difficult thing. Now, some ladies are going to say...

Gary: But how do you live with that though?

John: You're a man, you'll never understand, you'll never experience. Well, I have a Bible here that helps me understand how God would want me to look at this. How do you live with that? You know Gary, I wish I could tell you that I have a really easy simple sweet answer. Man I don't, I just don't. Other than to know that God said to Paul when Paul was wrestling with something, "My grace is sufficient for thee." If that's a simple answer, maybe it's because the answer is simple, not easy but simple. There's grace in God and power in Jesus Christ and there is comfort in the presence of the Holy Spirit. And perhaps the answer isn't to give birth and raise this baby. Perhaps the answer is to offer the child for adoption into a home where there's going to be a good warm loving family environment without the maybe stigmas that are being attached.

Gary: Let me ask you, kind of in the same van but another question. What about deformed or disabled children? You go to the doctor, there's a test on you, and he says you're going to have a Down syndrome baby or you're going to have some sort of deformed baby. Do you carry that baby to term?

John: Let me tell you this. My pastor's wife in my church was pregnant and had that little test done and they said to her, "The test just come back showing that your child is going to be deformed," and I'm not exactly sure of the deformity or disability that it was. "Its bad news, we recommend you terminate." Well, she disagreed; carried the baby to term, worrying, of course and has given birth, this is a perfectly healthy, perfectly normal beautiful child that the medical profession was recommending be terminated due to some test. Now, I'm not sure how many times the tests are faulty but I know they're faulty sometimes. Even if the tests aren't faulty, is the answer to certain deformity or disability, does that mean to end a life? Recently I saw in the television, some kid, a college age I think. He's on the wrestling team, he's got a girlfriend, and he's a funny, bright, handsome kid. He doesn't have arms or legs to speak of.

Gary: But he wrestles.

John: Yeah, he wrestles, it's remarkable. He has these little stumpy things in his arms and little stumpy legs. This is a disability if ever there was. He refuses to look it that way.

Gary: You know what's scary is, when we start selecting who lives and who doesn't because we're making decisions or judgements about quality of life for them like it's very dangerous.

John: Of course it does.

Gary: Where do you stop? The elderly person who can't get out and drive and enjoy life they might be losing their hearing, their quality of life is low, are we going to terminate their life?

John: OK. The child in the womb with a difficult disability. What about the child in the womb with mild retardation? You and I both know plenty of Down syndrome people who are wonderful, productive, happy, beautiful people who just happen to have Down syndrome. Someone is going to say, "This child is going to be born Downs syndrome, let's abort." In that wonderful life, again, there are some parents probably listening today who are struggling with raising children in difficult circumstances. I'm not meaning to sound idealistic but I'm meaning to say that the Bible is suggesting ending the life is not the way out.

Gary: John, let me ask you a couple of questions here.

John: OK.

Gary: These are dilemmas that real people have faced. I wonder what our listeners would think, what would you think about the proper solution, would you abort or not in this case. Here's a preacher and a wife. They're very, very poor. They already have fourteen kids, now she finds out she's pregnant with their fifteenth kid.

John: Fifteenth!

Gary: Can you imagine number 1-5? They're living in tremendous poverty, considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending abortion?

John: Many people would and would act on that recommendation.

Gary: Then they would have aborted John Wesley, one of the most famous preachers of all time, great evangelist of the 19th century. He has written some tremendous sermons, his brother wrote numerous wonderful hymns.

John: Right.

Gary: Now, how about a father sick with sniffles, the mother has tuberculosis, they have four children. The first is blind, the second died, the third is deaf and the fourth has TB. Now the mother finds she's pregnant, again. Would you recommend abortion for this child?

John: OK. Who was the child born in these circumstances?

Gary: This is Beethoven.

John: And many people would have rush to the abortion clinic and said, "The best thing to do is end this life."

Gary: We could go on and on with numerous examples like this and it just shows that you don't know what this life that you consider might be and not have quality life, what this person will actually become.

John: OK, someone who's had an abortion... You said the statistic say almost 45, 50% of women under the age of forty five have had abortion, at least one abortion. What do you say to that woman? What do you say today? Does God love that person? Does God accept that person?

Gary: Jesus loves you and he knows, what led you to do, what you did and he can forgive you for that. It's simply coming to Jesus, asking for forgiveness.

John: Even the...

Gary: That's the wonders of the Gospel that you can just come and confess your sin and he will accept you as you are.

John: A difficult subject, living with this is very, very difficult but even the pain, the difficulty associated with abortion is something that Jesus can take care of and help you through. Come to him today. Trust him with your difficulties and understand that some things are not solutions but are just compounding difficulty in problem. There's hope in Christ and we'll tell you about it here. Join us for more next time. Thank you for being with us this time on Bible Talk. [music]

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