Doug Batchelor: Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? Late one afternoon in 1901, a young cowboy named Jim White was looking for stray cattle in the New Mexico wilderness, when he spotted smoke rising from the distant hills. On investigating, he discovered it wasn’t smoke at all but millions of bats boiling out of a cave like a tornado.
A few days later, Jim returned to the entrance of the colossal cave, where he crafted a ladder with some fence wire and sticks. Armed with a home-made kerosene lamp, the 16-year-old adventurer descended 50 feet into the gaping corridor of the dark abyss, becoming the first person known to explore Carlsbad Caverns.
Filled with a kaleidoscope of beautiful stalactites and formations, these world famous caverns are now a national park of 117 caves, the biggest one being big enough to enclose an entire football field. Today, more than 300,000 people enjoy the wonders of the caverns each year.
Jim White dedicated the rest of his life to promoting the caves and guiding people safely through these underground cathedrals. The Bible talks about a lamp that can guide you through the darkness. Stay with us friends, we’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.
[PROGRAM INTRODUCTION]
Doug Batchelor: Welcome listening friends to Bible Answers Live, and we do have lines open. If you would like to call in with a Bible question, that’s why we’re here. We’ve dedicated the next hour or so to doing our best to find the truth by searching God’s Word together. So if you have a question about the Bible or the Christian faith, that’s what this broadcast is for.
It’s a free phone call. That number is (800) GOD-SAYS, that’s (800) 463-7297 will bring you into the studio. We try to give some preferential treatment to our first-time callers. If you’ve never called before, pick up a phone and let us know you’re listening. Give us a call (800) GOD-SAYS or (800) 463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor.
Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening listening friends and Pastor Doug. Let’s begin the program with prayer. Dear Father, once again we want to invite Your presence to be with us as we study Your Word together. We recognize that the Bible is indeed a guide to lead us into a deeper and fuller understanding of Your will. Bless our time together. Be with those who are listening, wherever they might be. In Jesus name, amen.
Doug Batchelor: Amen!
Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened up the program by talking about young Jim White, a 16-year-old, going into this cave not knowing what to expect, not knowing what he’d find in there. It’s quite a bit of bravery for a young man to have a kerosene lamp and wander off into this huge cave.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, and part of the story is, on his first venture into the cave, he just had this “home-made kerosene lamp”. I am not sure exactly what that means but at one point when he was way off in there, the lamp went out. He said he felt like black wool had been pulled over his eyes, and I just think to myself what could have gone through the mind of a 16-years-old out there in the abyss? There in the bowels of the earth in this cave its cold, 56 degrees all the time, and knowing that there’s millions of bats in there and it’s pitch inky black.
He fumbled around in the dark. Thankfully, he had brought a little additional oil. We have a good illustration there for pastors that are listening. He fumbled in the dark and he managed to light a match and he was able to fill his lamp and get out of there. He came back a few days later with a 15-year-old friend named Muchacho. Here we have a 16-year-old and a 15-year-old and they took enough food for three days and they made a three-day foray into these caves with ropes and lamps just to see how far it went. They brought a big ball of string so they could tie it off and make sure they could find their way back out again.
You just love these stories of adventure but I’ve been in some deep caverns. Once I was basically given a private tour, because I was the last person in the day, and the student that was leading the tour said, “Well, all right you’ve come so far…” and they get me a tour through endless caverns back in I think Virginia.
Way down in the middle there, I said, “Can you turn off the lights?” I don’t know if they are supposed to normally do it because of insurance reasons, but she just turned off the lights and boy, there’s nothing quite as dark. You can open and close your eyes and you can’t tell if they’re open or closed.
The amazing thing is the little bit of light on my watch. I could press that button and all of a sudden, here I was from that little bit of light on my watch. Have you ever thought like you’re in darkness friends, or sometimes it seems like you don’t know where to go or where to turn or how to escape the darkness that you’re in? The Bible itself is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path – it tells us in Psalms.
We have a special lesson. If you’d like to know how to find that light that will guide you to better understand God’s will for you and into the eternal day, then we have a free lesson that talks about that and it’s the first lesson in the series. You do this lesson. You’ll enjoy it. We’ll send it to the others. Tell us about it.
Jëan Ross: This is the study guide entitled Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?, and it’s all about the Bible, a lamp unto our feet; a light to our path. Friends, we’ll send this to you for free if you’d call our resource line. Just ask for the study guide on the Bible. It’s called Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?
The number to our resource line is (800) 835-6747. Again, that’s (800) 835-6747 and you can ask for the study guide called Is There Anything Left You Can Trust? It’s all about the Bible. Just a great study resource filled with Scripture, some very fascinating and important facts about the Bible also in that lesson.
Again, one more time, the number is (800) 835-6747 and the study guide is called Is There Anything Left You Can Trust? Friends, if you’re near your computer, you can join us. We’re streaming the program from the studio today. It’s live.amazingfacts.org. Again, that’s live.amazingfacts.org. We’re going to go to the phone lines. Our first call of this evening is Fred and Fred is listening from Connecticut. Fred, welcome to the program.
Fred: Yes, the red horse in Revelation -- does that have anything to do with communism?
Doug Batchelor: I can understand why you asked that. People often think of the communist flag and they were called the “reds” back then. During the cold war, of course the USSR had technically dissolved and broken up into a number of countries, including Russia.
But the red horse that it speaks of in the Bible is, the four horsemen of the apocalypse are describing the first four of the seven seals of Revelation. Revelation tells us that it was only the Lamb that could open the seven special seals, and as it opens the first seal, it says there’s a white horse. And then it tells us there is a red horse, and then there is a, if I am not mistaken, it’s a black horse, and then it’s the pale, the gray horse.
Those horses represent different phases of church history between the first coming and the second coming of Jesus. That red horse represents a time of great persecution, and if I am not mistaken, Pastor Ross said, corresponds with that time of the Church of Smyrna where there was great sacrifice and great death and persecution under the Roman Emperor.
Jëan Ross: Roughly from about 180 A.D. thru to about 313 A.D. Just the times where persecution, you’ve probably heard about the Roman coliseum, the way Christians were gathered up and fed to lions and it was sort of the city entertainment where Christians were even burned to provide lights at night so the entertainment could continue. So a terrible time of persecution symbolized by the red horse.
Doug Batchelor: Good question Fred. We appreciate that, and by the way, we have a new magazine that Amazing Facts has just produced, specifically dedicated to Daniel and Revelation. The cover of the magazine has got the four horses of the Apocalypse on it, and it talks about that. If you’d like a free copy, just call Amazing Facts.
Jëan Ross: The number to call is (800) 835-6747. That’s (800) 835-6747, and you can ask about the magazine on Daniel and Revelation. Our next caller is Robert and Robert is listening from Washington. Robert, welcome to the program.
Robert: Hi.
Doug Batchelor: Good evening!
Robert: Good evening. Is this Pastor Doug Batchelor am I talking to?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, what’s left of him -- your question tonight?
Robert: Well, my question tonight is, is the history [??] at a time 50,000 Huguenots were killed in one day in Bible prophecy?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, there was a great persecution of the Huguenots and it does talk in Revelation about this turmoil that happened during the French Revolution, because that was the tipping point in the reformation. I don’t know that it specifically talks about the Huguenots dying. You’re not going to find the word “Huguenots” in the Bible, and the Huguenots, for the friends that are listening, were some of the Protestant Christians in France.
Yeah, I am sure the numbers vary a little bit historically but they say blood ran in the streets. Is that the same as, Pastor Ross’s seeing Bartholomew's Day massacre?
Jëan Ross: Yes, it’s related to that. As a matter of fact, there is a reference to a time of severe persecution that you read about under the trumpets where it speaks of the seals where this is the fifth seal. It speaks about souls under the altar, symbolizing those who were slain for their faith in God, and many have identified during that time period, one of the greatest slaughters was that of the French Huguenots.
Doug Batchelor: I don’t know if that’s answering your question Robert.
Robert: That’s fine.
Dough Batchelor: OK. I just wanted to make sure. You know that magazine we just mentioned, it just came out. If you folks haven’t seen that, it’s a great resource to study Daniel and Revelation, and I think it refers to this time period in France in the magazine. You’ll enjoy that. It’s the Amazing Facts magazine on Daniel and Revelation. Call the resource number and we’ll send you a copy.
Jëan Ross: The number again is (800) 835-6747 and the magazine is on Daniel and Revelation. We’ll send it to anyone who calls and asks for it.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, and I just want to make it clear, it’s not a boring periodical. This is a magazine that is fully illustrated with a number of new paintings, new artwork, pictures of Bible lands and things that help unfold the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. We say magazine but it’s over 100 pages.
Jëan Ross: Absolutely. All right, our next caller is Carlos and he is listening from New York. Carlos, welcome to the program.
Carlos: Thank you for having me. My question is, why didn’t God destroy Lucifer in the beginning to avoid Adam and Eve from causing the first sin?
Doug Batchelor: That’s a good question. You can read about the rebellion of Lucifer in Isaiah 14 and in Ezekiel 28, and it says he wanted to be God and he was accusing. Lucifer was the highest of God’s created beings. Now think about that. The next step up from Lucifer is God himself. Lucifer was the chief of all the angels … administering spirits, the army of God, so to speak, and he began to want God’s position and he began to campaign through the intelligent beings and angels in heaven and say, “If I was God, we’d have more freedom. We would be happier.”
If God had just killed Lucifer, the Lord knew the other creatures might obey God but out of fear, instead of love. God had to allow Lucifer to demonstrate who he was and it tells us that one-third of the angels in heaven followed Lucifer in his rebellion. You can read about that in Revelation 12.
God, it broke His heart to do it but sometimes you have to allow things to play out so the whole universe would see God is good and that Lucifer’s accusations were wrong. I know it’s caused a lot of suffering in the universe, in our world, but that’s because our planet first chose to listen to Adam and Eve. We have a lesson that we can send you for free Carlos. It talks about Did God make a devil and it explains this whole question.
Jëan Ross: The number to call to our resource line is (800) 835-6747 and the study guide is called Did God Create a Devil. That’s (800) 835-6747 – call and ask for that study guide. We’ll be happy to send it to you Carlos or anyone who calls and asks. We have Lisa who is listening from New York. Lisa, welcome to the program.
Lisa: Hi Pastor Doug. I just have a question. I want to talk about the birth of Christ, the death of Christ, there’s not much explaining about the way He was raised. We know He was born in Bethlehem. He was raised in Egypt or is it Ethiopia, and He died in Nazareth. Now can you explain to me His early childhood life of being raised in Egypt or Ethiopia? That’s question 1. The question 2 is, were the Christians people of color?
Doug Batchelor: Ok. Two questions, first question – Bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is just outside of Jerusalem. He went down to Egypt as a young child. He was somewhere around two years of age because Herod was trying to exterminate the baby boys in Bethlehem. An angel warned Joseph and Mary to flee to Egypt.
They went down to Egypt and it was probably, history says, after Herod died, an angel told Joseph it was safe to come back, and you find that I believe in the Gospel of Luke. They came back but he was afraid to go back to Bethlehem because Archelaus, Herod’s son who was pretty cruel, was there.
So they went up to Nazareth. Jesus grew up in Nazareth. He was only in Egypt probably two or three years when He was very young, and the Bible is pretty clear about that as far as where He was. There’s theories that Jesus went to India and studied from gurus and teachers there, or that Jesus went to Asia or different places and where did He get all this wisdom…so there’s been lot of theories but you don’t find anything in the Bible that says he went any further than Egypt in His life. And then you asked, were God’s people…?
Lisa: Do you find anything in the old [indiscernible 16:26] school? The Bible is a collaborated work put together, according to King James?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, the Scriptures are a pretty harmonious haul, and your second question was about the race or the genealogy of the Jewish people?
Lisa: Correct.
Dough Batchelor: One of the amazing things about the history of the Jewish people is that of course they came from the tribe of Shem, when you trace them from the Tower of Babel, but along the way they intermarried quite a bit with a number of the surrounding people. That’s why you’ve got the Book of Ruth in the Bible. You have the story of Ruth. Ruth was a Moabite who intermarried with a man named Boaz and she is an ancestor of Jesus, as is Tamar. Tamar was not a Jew. She intermarried with Judah and he is another ancestor of Jesus.
Even when they came out of Egypt, it says there was a mixed multitude. Some other slaves, besides the Jews, escaped from Egypt at the same time. Those other slaves were probably from a whole kaleidoscope of different backgrounds, so woven into the fabric of the Jewish nation, are people from probably every corner of the earth. Does that makes sense?
Lisa: It makes sense but it still seems like the puzzle pieces together. For instance, why does the Bible starts with Genesis when it began with Exodus? It’s just a lot of things just don’t fit and it leaves you confused.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, that’s a good question. Let me do my best to answer that for you. Moses probably wrote the story of Genesis while he was in the wilderness taking care of Jethro, his father’s sheep. He then followed up with his own story. Even though you’re correct, Moses was already out of Egypt by the time he wrote Genesis, so the first part of Exodus had happened.
But he finally had time during that 40 years, under the inspiration of the Spirit to write the account of the origin of God’s people and how He led them. Good question! You would enjoy our lesson that we’ve been talking about Lisa, that takes people through a series of Bible studies. You’d be really be blessed by it and we encourage you to send for our free offer tonight.
Jëan Ross: The number to call is (800) 835-6747, that is our resource line, and ask for the study guide on the Bible. Is Anything Left You Can Trust and as you mentioned earlier, that is the first lesson in a series of lessons that guides a person through probably the most important teachings of the Bible.
So the number to call for that is (800) 835-6747. We have Bill who is listening from Canada. Bill, welcome to the program.
Bill: Thank you Doug. I have a question about divorce. I go to a church and they told me and my partner that we should separate. We have three children together. I lost my wife six years ago and two kids with her. We were both unbelievers and I have moved up with another lady and we have three kids together, and then two years ago we both accepted Christ into our lives. Now we live together but I am still married to my wife. Now we’re working on a divorce but the church says we should separate and not be married or not divorce. Our church doesn’t accept divorce.
Doug Batchelor: Well that’s a good question, and you came to Christ since you made these mistakes and so at the time you didn’t know. The closest, there’s two examples I can think of in the Bible. I want to give you a Bible answer.
One is, when King David, he made some big mistakes and he took his friend’s wife, and I am not saying you did that. I am just using this as a scenario, and he and Bathsheba had a baby. You can’t unscramble scrambled eggs. They made some mistakes but at first when David cheated with Bathsheba, it says he took Uriah’s wife but after Uriah was dead and they lost their first baby together, it says David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and for the rest of his life, she was considered as his wife, even though they started out wrong.
Then you’ve got the Samaritan woman who had been married to five men, and that’s in John Chapter 4. When she found Jesus, she is living with a guy she is not married to. One of two things probably happened – she either went home and married him or she kicked him out until they could get married, because I know you’re in a situation where you’ve got children together but you’re telling me you’re still technically married to somebody else, is that right? I think we lost our caller. Can you press…
Jëan Ross: …see if we can get him back. Hang on a second. There we go…Bill?
Doug Batchelor: Bill, you’re still there?
Bill: Yeah, I am here.
Doug Batchelor: So you’re technically still married to someone else but you’re living with someone you’ve been with for I guess a couple of years, and you have children together?
Bill: Yeah, and so we’re working on a divorce but it’s just so difficult with the children involved. So it’s just taking a little bit of time but we’re going to get there. But it’s just the church that we go to, we’re actually not members but they don’t allow divorce. So they came to us and said they didn’t approve with the way we’re living and they said I should go back to my first wife. But she was already previously married before. So I disagree with them 100% but they said our salvation could be in jeopardy. But I disagree with them 100% but anyways, my partner is a little scared.
Doug Batchelor: I don’t believe that you can leave your girlfriend, I guess she is not your wife yet technically that you’re with now and you have children together and it doesn’t sound like you can go back. It sounds like you’ve come to Christ. You’ve learned these things and I think that if you read First Corinthians 7, God wants you to get a new beginning.
If I was your pastor, let me tell you what I would say, and Pastor Ross, this is an interesting question you might want to chime in. I’d say I couldn’t allow you to be a member of the church. I would welcome and encourage you and your family to come to church. I couldn’t have you a member on the books until you had your divorce settled and you were married to the one you’re living with.
I would not tell you to now forsake the one you’re living with, that you’ve got children with, especially since your ex-wife it sounds like is remarried. It doesn’t sound like you’re going to be able to unravel all that. I mean however that happened, it happened. You come to Christ. You get a new beginning where you’re at. So yeah, take care of the paperwork so that you’re legally married. Pastor Ross?
Jëan Ross: Absolutely Pastor Doug. Sometimes we make mistakes and we come to a realization of that mistake. It’s going to cause more heartache and more pain to try and go back and redo things than to accept God’s forgiveness, make changes where you can, and move forward in faith trusting in Him.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, so I’ve got to meet you where you’re at Bill and I would take care of that, become legally divorced and legally married and then I would hope a church would welcome you because you’re a new Christian.
By the way, we have a free book that we’ll send you if you just ask for it, and it’s called Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage. I wrote it about a year ago, deals specifically with this issue and I think it will answer a lot of your questions.
Jëan Ross: The number to call is (800) 835-6747 and the book is called Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage. Just call that number and ask for the book. We’ll be happy to send it to anyone who calls and asks. We have Joyce who is listening from Brooklyn, New York. Joyce, welcome to the program.
Joyce: Hello Pastor Doug.
Doug Batchelor: Good evening.
Joyce: Good evening. My question is the nature of Christ – did He take on the nature of the first Adam before the fall or did He take on the nature of the second Adam after the fall? Can you explain to me please?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, I believe the Bible tells us that Jesus was tempted on all points the way we are, yet without sin. For Him to be tempted the way we are, He would have to have a nature like ours. Jesus obviously was different in some way because we’ve all sinned and He did not sin, we were not born miraculously and He was, but Jesus was 100% human like the fallen children of Adam.
Jesus was not 18 feet tall. Jesus did not live 900 years, and when you look at the genealogy of Jesus in the Bible, we realize that it goes to great lengths to trace all of the interesting characters in His genealogy, if those characters have no influence on His nature, why even mention it?
I think the reason that Bible tells us in great detail about Jesus’ family tree is because Jesus wants us to know He was like us and He has given us an example to overcome the way He does. That’s a quick answer but I think we’ve got a book that deals with the nature of Christ. I am trying to remember the title right now, to tell you the truth.
Joyce: Yeah, I am a little bit confused.
Doug Batchelor: Well, it’s actually Dennis Priebe has a book called Face-to-Face With the Real Gospel and where he talks quite a bit about the nature of Christ. But yeah, Jesus, I believe was like us. He had the nature of Adam, or at least obviously Jesus grew up and got old. If He had not died on the Cross, He would have gotten old and died, and so in that sense, He was like us.
Joyce: Good. So He had the nature of the second Adam, yet without sin.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, that’s the key.
Joyce: Yet without sin. OK Pastor, thank you very much. Have a good evening.
Doug Batchelor: You too and thank you. Oh it’s here, it’s called Christ’s Human Nature by Joe Crews. We’ll send you a free copy. Anyone who wants to understand this very important subject, it’s called Christ’s Human Nature by Joe Crews.
Jëan Ross: The number to call (800) 835-6747. Just ask for the book Christ’s Human Nature and we’ll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and asks.
Pastor Doug, we’re looking at the engineer. She is telling us that we have about a minute and a half before we need to take a break. One of our websites that is probably the most well known, is the amazingfacts.org website. As a matter of fact, I am looking at it right now, just filled with great resources for anybody wanting to study the Bible.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, and if people have not been there, we just thank the Lord that you go to Google and you start typing in amazing facts, and before you finish typing it, it pops up because it’s such a popular site. People studying the Bible, all over the world, use this site and lot of [??] they translated. There are videos, there are books, there are audio sermons, there’s studies…it is a link to a number of other fascinating sites, all dealing with Bible study and prophecy.
So just go to amazingfacts.org. If you get it wrong and you type in amazingfacts.com it will still take you there, and so you enjoy that.
Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, I am looking at the website that we were just talking about a minute ago – the Amazing Facts website. When you click on that website, one of the first banners that comes up is the brand new documentary that Amazing Facts has just completed, called The Mystery of Revelation and if you would go to the website, click on that link, that banner there, and it will take you to another website that will tell you all about this great Bible study resource, just a fantastic 90-minute DVD that explores the very heart of Revelation.
Doug Batchelor: We spent about three and a half years working on it and it’s called Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon and it’s a fascinating study in the prophecies of Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, that will really enhance your understanding of church history between the first coming…it starts with the first coming of Jesus, kind of leads us through the reformation up to the present day.
You can go to the website directly – RevelationMystery.com and/or go to the Amazing Facts website. You’ll see the banner there. It’s called Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon. Watch the trailer. You’re wondering about it. I think you’ll really enjoy it. Traveled around the world, got historians and a lot of powerful information. Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Doug Batchelor: Welcome back friends. We are live and this is Bible Answers Live. If you have a Bible question, we still have a couple of phone lines open. The phone number is (800) 463-7297. You think we’d be able to say it by now without looking at it after all these years? 1-(800) 463-7297. The problem is in this day and age, we have so many numbers in our life. How many email addresses do you have?
Jëan Ross: You know what, it’s hard to keep track. At least two that I know of.
Doug Batchelor: All right friends, if you’ve got a question, give us a call at (800) 463-7297 and I think we’re ready to go back to the callers.
Jëan Ross: Yeah, we have Bonnie who is listening in Iowa. Bonnie, welcome to the program.
Bonnie: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Recently I watched a DVD dealing with things in the sky and planets that happened at Christ’s birth and at his death, and I didn’t know if you had watched that and if you have any opinion on that, if you know what I am talking about.
Doug Batchelor: I have heard that there are some theories that there was something happening astronomically around the time Jesus was born and that was supposed to be a signal to the wise men in Babylon, the Magi, that went on that journey. I don’t believe that it was a natural phenomenon like a comet or something, because it says that after they left Herod’s palace, the star that they were following, seemed to hover right over the home where Mary and Joseph were.
You can follow the moon when you’re driving but you never really get there. This was more likely a band of angels that appeared above the wise men and guided them across the desert and ultimately to the very stable or manger where Jesus was.
I don’t usually go with people that say there was all these stars lined up or there was this astronomical sign that happened. First of all, sometimes I find that people that say this, they disagree on the year of Jesus’ birth. Most historians agree Christ was not born the year zero. It was the year 3 or 4 B.C. They found out after they established the A.D./B.C. dating method. I don’t know if that helps at all Bonnie with your question.
Bonnie: Well I know she says that the biggest and what’s the largest planet, Jupiter? That they were stacked on top of each other and that’s what made…
Doug Batchelor: They may have been. Yeah, they may have been but that happens every few hundred years or something and so I am not sure that’s what the Magi were following. Jesus does say and the Bible says there will be signs in the sun and the moon and stars. There may have been some astronomical sign but I don’t think that’s what the wise men were following.
Like I said, because it seemed to hover right over the stable and bring them right there, like the angels that appeared to the shepherds that then guided them to their child. I hope that helps a little bit but we do appreciate it. We do have a message. We have a lesson about angel visitors in outer space, talking about those last day messages.
Jëan Ross: If you’ll give us a call on our resource line, Bonnie or anyone, and ask the study guide that is entitled Messages from Outer Space and we’d be happy to send that to you. It talks about Revelation Chapter 14 and the three angels’ messages.
The number to call is (800) 835-6747. That is the resource line, and ask for the study guide called Messages from Outer Space. Our next caller is Greg and he is listening from Ohio. Greg, welcome to the program.
Greg: Hello Doug.
Doug Batchelor: Hi. How are you doing?
Greg: I am doing fine, thank you very much. Thanks for taking my call. I was reading in Isaiah 14:4 it says, “Thou shalt take up this proverb against the King of Babylon,” and then in verse 16 it says, “Is this the man that made the earth to tremble?” And then in 12, it says, “How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer?” As far as I know, that name only shows up in the Bible one time.
Doug Batchelor: That’s true.
Greg: OK, and then after 12 it says, “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds…” and all that stuff but it’s … he has a plan. He is talking about the King of Babylon and I was wondering how do we get…
Doug Batchelor: How do we get Lucifer out of that? Yeah, good question. You’ll notice that the devil principally works through earthly leaders. For instance, you read in Revelation 12 that the devil inspired the dragon through the kingdom of Rome to kill the babies in Bethlehem, and his name was King Herod. But the devil was manipulating that wicked king to kill the babies.
You can read about the king of Tyre and this is in Ezekiel 28. It talks about the king of Tyre, and then it starts to go off into this prophecy about the devil. It says, you were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering. You were the anointed cherub, started up talking about a man, a king, and then it launches to the power behind the king.
The prophet then looks behind the veil at the power behind the king, and he starts describing a devil. That same phenomenon, it was the devil working behind the Pharaoh that was persecuting God’s people in Egypt, and it’s the devil that Isaiah sees behind the veil in Babylon, the king of Babylon that was persecuting God’s people. The temple was destroyed by the king of Babylon.
So these prophets often pulled aside the veil. They started with an earthly king and then they saw the devil behind the power. So hope that helps a little bit Greg but you’ll also listen to that lesson Did God Create a Devil and I think you’ll find that helpful.
Jëan Ross: The number to call for that is (800) 835-6747. The study guide again is called Did God Create a Devil and specifically it looks at this passage and others that talk about the origin of evil and Satan. Our next caller is Janie and she is listening from Alabama. Janie, welcome to the program.
Janie: Yes, good evening pastor and thank you so much. I am already blessed by your show so I am very happy to get in to talk to you.
Doug Batchelor: Well thank you, and your question today?
Janie: Yes. I had a question about Urim and Thummim and in Deuteronomy I guess the 38th Chapter in 8th verse it talks about how it was on the dressing for the high priest and in 1 Samuel 14:41 it talks about how Saul was praying to the Lord to give him a son through Urim or through Thummim, so I guess first I don’t know exactly how to pronounce it correctly and secondly, what was the purpose of…I know they didn’t have electronics back then so just trying to imagine how the sign would have been displayed through those?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, I’ll do my best and Pastor Ross might want to chime in but there is somewhat of a mystery connected with this. There was this breast plate and there of course were 12 stones on the breast plate that depicted that, they’re all different, they depicted different tribes of Israel. They’re all precious stones. A high priest wore this golden plate over his heart, symbolizing that he bore on his heart the people of Israel.
But also on this breast plate were two prominent stones on the right and left, and I don’t know if they were red and green like traffic lights, but they would inquire of the Lord with sort of a yes or no question. They pray and phrase their question like this and then one of them would seem to glow and it would say yes or no.
When David was living in the wilderness in the cave and [??] the priest fled when all the priests were slain by Saul’s soldiers, he took the ephod with him and he had the Urim and the Thummim and David would inquire of it, and it would guide him, sometimes even in battle. How they illuminated, if it was miraculously the Holy Spirit was illuminating these stones, that’s my understanding.
Your pronunciation is not that bad. I’ve always said the Urim and Thummim. It’s a hard word to say. It’s got like three M’s in one word. Pastor Ross, is that what your understanding was?
Jëan Ross: Yes, absolutely. If we don’t know for sure which one of these stones, the Urim or the Thummim, was the yes and which one was the no, but I think we have a clue in First Samuel Chapter 28. You have the story of Saul and the Philistines came and camped against Israel.
Saul was wanting to know whether he should take up his armies and go against the Philistines. In verse 6 it says, “And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.”
Now the question that he was wanting to know is, should he go up against the Philistines? And you’d expect the Urim to be green or yes, if that was the case to go up, but no answer came and so eventually, you know the story. He went to the witch of Endor and he did actually go up into battle and that was the last battle that he was ever involved in.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, that’s a good point. I had never thought of it. Anyway, we appreciate your question Janie and hope that helps a little bit. I’d like to see a picture of it someday. Maybe I bet you that there’s probably some TV website that has a depiction of what that Urim and Thummim look like. Next one, who is lined up?
Jëan Ross: We’ve got Edgar and he is listening from Kansas. Edgar, welcome to the program.
Edgar: Hello. Good evening. I have a question about the original names in the Bible, like for example, Moses means deliverer, Job means persecuted, Abraham means father of many and stuff and Jacob means supplanter. My question was, how would Isaac name his son, supplanter or is it just like a figure to term that Moses used to name him or what are your thoughts on that?
Doug Batchelor: Well that was Jacob’s real name means supplanter or trickster. Probably when they first named him it was a little more affectionate because what had happened was Jacob came out with his hand on Esau’s heel, if I am not mistaken. They were twins and they thought, here he is a little trickster. So he got that name but it began to fulfill on his life that he ended up being something of a deceiver in the way he treated people, deceiving his brother in kind of a con artist.
Jëan Ross: You will find that in Genesis 25:26. It says, “Afterwards his brother came out and he took hold of his or Esau’s heel,” he is talking about Jacob, “So his name was called Jacob.”
Doug Batchelor: When they named him, I think it was probably affectionate at that point. They didn’t mean it as derogatory. That became his name and Esau came out all red and the word red Edom, it means ruddy or reddish and so that’s where he got his name, and the red porridge that Jacob sold him, also comes from that same word. Anyway, I hope that helps a little Edgar.
Edgar: Yes, thank you.
Doug Batchelor: I appreciate your question. I am trying to think we do have a lesson that talks about names, you’ll enjoy. It’s called The Name of God but again, a whole section in there about Bible names and what they mean, and there’s actually some funny stories you’ll enjoy, called The Name of God.
Jëan Ross: If you would like to receive that free resource book, call (800) 835-6747. You can ask for the book entitled The Names of God. That’s (800) 835-6747. We have Josie who is listening from Great Bend, Kansas. Josie, welcome to the program.
Josie: Hi, how are you guys?
Doug Batchelor: Doing great.
Josie: Thank you for taking my call. My question is, I want to know what man is made of. I understood it to be that we are a body from the earth and that God gave into us a living soul and I know God breathed into it a spirit and that we become a living soul. But I have heard instead that we are a trinity like God and I had a question about 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 where it kind of seems to say that we are made of a spirit, soul and a body. Just wondering which one is correct?
Doug Batchelor: All right, when God first made man, it says He made them of the dust of the earth so I think everybody knows that physically, while life is a miracle, as soon as that spark of life is gone and we cease to breathe, we almost immediately begin to…the cells begin to break down and die, and if they’re put on the ground, they return to be elements of the earth. God said to Adam, “Ashes you are and to Ashes you return.” I was thinking about the committal service but yeah, the Bible says, “Ashes you are and to Ashes you’ll return.”
A number of verses in the Bible bear that out but the man, when we’re alive we not only have our body, it talks about our soul and sometimes our soul and the spirit, and folks have wondered well, how do we divide these things up physically?
Well, some have said man can be led by the spirit, and then man also has a mind and a conscience, and that’s a little more of a biological reasoning or knowledge, and so even within our mind you’ve got a couple of components. You’ve got the spirit of man; you’ve got the mind, and a person can have a man and just be totally void of the Holy Spirit, right? So when the Lord wants to save as body, soul and spirit, that’s why they…we’re not a trinity but it’s different facets of how God saves us.
Josie: So do we possess a spirit and a soul or…?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, God breathes His Spirit into all of us. It’s like Job said, “All the while, the spirit of God is in my nostrils.” The word that he used there was “Ruach” and it’s a Hebrew word. It just means the breath of God, the life of God is in my nostrils. It’s just what we breathe. So that’s the spirit of man and then you’ve got the mind, which is different, but as soon as the Spirit of God is separated from us, it’s not ours.
When the Bible tells us God said that He would take the spirit of Moses and put it on the people. Moses did not have a copyrighted spirit, and I have never heard anyone pray for the spirit of Moses. God said to Elisha that he would take the spirit of Elijah. Actually Elisha prayed. He said, “Let your spirit be upon me,” and Elisha got a double portion of the spirit of Elijah.
Elijah didn’t have a special labeled spirit. It was the Spirit of God. Elisha wanted that spirit of revival that God had given Elijah, and so they were labeled that way. But God gives us all His Spirit. We don’t manufacture our own Holy Spirit.
Jëan Ross: One way that I have heard the explanation given between body, soul and spirit, you’ve got the body in Genesis, “God formed man out of the dust of the earth,” and then He breathed into him the breath of life. That word “breath” is also translated as spirit.
And then Adam became a living soul. So the soul would be both body and breath combined, makes the whole. Soul can also represent the innermost part of a man or a woman. That’s our thoughts, our feelings, our character – who we are. So you have the body, you have the spirit or the breath, and then combined, you have the soul.
Josie: That’s what my question is from Hebrew 4:12 because of those, the Word of God has put across [indiscernible 47:16] dividing of soul and spirit so that you can be divided.
Doug Batchelor: Well I think that what He is doing there is in our minds, in our souls and in our minds, we sometimes may desire things that the Spirit is telling us that we shouldn’t do, and the Word of God is saying you’ve got to separate the mind from the Spirit. If you’re being led by the Spirit, don’t be led by your habits and your mind and those patterns.
Josie: I get it. OK, I understand. That makes sense.
Doug Batchelor: Good. All right, well thank you. You’d also enjoy the lesson or this book that we’ve got that talks about the Bible, The Ultimate Resource. We’ll be happy to send that to you.
Jëan Ross: The number to call for that is (800) 835-6747 and the book is called The Ultimate Resource. Our next caller is Sal and Sal is calling from New York, listening on WMCA. Sal, welcome to the program.
Sal: Hi. God bless you.
Doug Batchelor: Thank you. Your question please?
Sal: I would like to ask a question about when Jesus died, immediately the curtain is torn and there’s an earthquake and then it says that people rose from their graves and they waited there and then came later to Jerusalem. Was that an actual people raising from their graves?
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, evidently when Jesus rose, and you find this in the book of Matthew Chapter 27 or 28. It tells us that when Jesus died on the Cross, there was a great earthquake and many of the graves of them that slept in Jerusalem; this is a local resurrection, not universal. Many, not all, of the graves of them that slept in Jerusalem, this may have been some of the patriarchs and kings. You get that verse?
Jëan Ross: Yeah, Matthew 27:52.
Doug Batchelor: It says that they opened, and after His resurrection, they came out of their graves and appeared to people and so we don’t know. It doesn’t say who they were but it might have been Isaiah and Jeremiah the prophet or some of the old patriarchs from around Jerusalem. They came and they appeared and said, “Jesus was The Messiah.” They made these quick appearances and then they ascended when Christ ascended. So it was very brief because it’s not even mentioned in John, Luke and Mark’s gospel.
Jëan Ross: Yeah, and we have no record in the book of Acts, in the early Christian church that these folks who were resurrected, played any part in the church. You think that if all of these people rose from the dead and they believed in Christ and they were here on the earth, they would have somehow been mentioned in Acts but nothing is said of it.
However, there is a clue as to what happened to them. We find in Ephesians 4:8, Paul quotes an Old Testament passage and he says, “For when He ascended on high,” speaking about the ascension of Jesus, “He led captivity captive and He gave gifts unto man.”
So that one indicates that those who were held captive by the grave, those who were resurrected at Christ resurrection, ascended up with Him to heaven and Christ gave gifts to them, or gifts to mankind. So that’s a clue as to what actually happened to them.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, He took a little trophy with Him.
Jëan Ross: Sort of first fruits of the resurrection.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, kind of some representatives. So hope that helps a little Sal, and we appreciate your question. We have a study guide that talks about Are the Dead Really Dead? I think it may address this time when some of the dead came to life at the resurrection of Jesus.
Jëan Ross: The number to call is (800) 835-6747 and study guide is Are the Dead Really Dead? We have Jerek who is listening from Wisconsin. Jerek, welcome to the program.
Jerek: Hi there. I was just wondering about 1 Corinthians 16:2. I was looking at the back of my Bible, at the definition of the Sabbath and it says there, “The day of rest ordained by God among Jews, the seventh day, Saturday; among Christians, the first day of the week, Sunday, the day of divine worship.” 1 Corinthians 16:2.
Doug Batchelor: Yeah, I would respectfully disagree with whoever did the notes in your Bible because I have also seen Bibles that use different notes and different references, but whoever put those notes in, they are probably biased towards believing that the first day of the week is the Sabbath or that it would somehow change, and they take this verse here where it says, “On the first of the week, let each one of you lay by them in store as God has prospered them that there be no collections when I come.”
So some are saying well see, they were taking an offering. It must have been a worship service. It actually says the opposite. It says that there be no collection in the church when I come. Let each one of you lay an offering aside by them, meaning in their homes.
So it’s a stretch to say this is the verse that establishes that Sunday is the new Sabbath. I think that God was pretty clear when He gave the seventh day Sabbath. I would hope that there is something stronger than this if He is going to change it.
Jëan Ross: It just happened yesterday, I was talking about this verse Pastor Doug, it’s interesting when you read the context. It talks about a famine taking place in Jerusalem and Paul was on his way down to Jerusalem and he was collecting gifts from the churches, from the believers that he was going to take down to give to those who were in trouble down in Jerusalem that would help during this time of difficulty that they went through and so Paul is writing a letter and he is saying, “I may be coming to your area so set by yourself aside on the first day of the week, what you’re going to give.”
The first of the week is when they believe is, or anyone back in those days, would pretty much sit down and workout their finances for the coming week – how much can I spend on this? How much can I spend on that? It was sort of one of those accounting activities that had to be done.
It probably wouldn’t have been right for Christians to sit down on the Sabbath and workout their finances. That’s something that needs to be done to business and needs to be done first day of the week. So Paul is not referring to this day as being a Sabbath. He is just saying, “On the first day of the week, when you work at your finances, set aside that which you’re going to give.”
Doug Batchelor: That’s a good point. I appreciate that Jerek. I don’t know if we have time for one more call Pastor Ross.
Jëan Ross: Yes, we’ve got Barbara and she is listening from Chicago. Barbara, welcome to the program.
Barbara: Hello and thank you for taking the call.
Doug Batchelor: We have just a minute and a half, so Barbara, what’s your question?
Barbara: OK. I am questioning about the sons of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1. Are these sons of God angels, and are these the same angels, sons of God, that came unto the daughters of men in Genesis?
Doug Batchelor: All right, good question. How you realize that it doesn’t tell us that through the sons of God that intermarried with the daughters of men in Genesis were angels. If you read in a number of places in the Bible, it tells us that when we accept the Lord, we become the sons of God and so the sons of God in Genesis, it’s talking about the descendants of Seth that were faithful to God, they were the sons of God. The descendants of Cain, they’re called the daughters of men, the children of Seth began to intermarry with the daughters of Cain and then this big flood came.
In Job, when it talks about the sons of God, we believe these may be some of the leaders of other worlds, just like when it tells us that Adam is called the son of God and he was the leader of our world, the devil goes to this heavenly meeting.
We’re out of time but we fortunately have a new book that deals with this subject. It’s called Who are the Sons of God? Angels, Aliens or Adopted – who are the sons of God? We’ll send you a free copy Barbara, just for calling.
Jëan Ross: The number to call is (800) 835-6747, and ask for the book Who Are the Sons of God?
Doug Batchelor: Listening friends, you can hear the music letting us know that this program’s just about wrap up. We’re only taking about 20 seconds in the end to ask you, if you’ve been blessed or edified, let us stay on the air. Send us a note and let us know. All you’ve got to do is go to amazingfacts.org where it says “contact us” you can donate online. Tell us that the program’s been a blessing. God bless till next week.
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