Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hello friends. This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? Even though he lived in his quiet neighborhood for years, no on seemed to know Walter Samaszko. In fact, it was weeks following his death before anyone realized he had died in his modest Carson City home. When clean up crews arrived, they made another startling discovery. This 69-year-old man who had lived so simply had a vast treasure of gold in his garage. Workers found thousands of rare gold coins from around the world worth millions of dollars, neatly stashed in old ammunition boxes. In total, about 135 pounds of gold is to be sold to auction, which is expected to net about 3 million dollars. Despite the millions of dollars in his garage, Samaszko didn’t appear to live a luxurious life. He got by on about $500 a week, and only had a modest checking and savings account. Did you know the Bible says that hoarding treasure is a foolish investment? Stay with us friends, we’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.
[PROGRAM INTRODUCTION]
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Welcome once again, listening friends, to Bible Answers Live. This is a live international interactive Bible study. You’re invited to call in with your Bible questions. Now is a good time to pick up the phone and give us a call, a plenty of lines open. If you’d like to call in with a Bible question, one more time here’s the number, 800-GOD-SAYS, that translates to 800-463-7297. 800-463-7297 will bring your Bible question into tonight’s program. And my name is Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening, listening friends. Pastor Doug, as usual, let’s begin the program with prayer. Dear Father, once again we thank you for this opportunity that we have to study your word, we want to ask your special blessing upon those who are listening, wherever they might be, and we pray for wisdom as we search the Bible for answers. Be with us this evening in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amen.
Pastor Jean Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a gentleman who had all of this treasure in boxes in his garage, these gold and these precious coins, and yet he lived very modestly. One almost wonders had he forgotten about all of that gold in his garage.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, it may be. But I guess his mother had started collecting the coins many years earlier, and maybe they thought it was an investment. But there it was, not helping them. Not really helping anybody. And now it’s going to be auctioned to pay a lot of his state taxes, because I’m not sure they have the right kind of will made out. And they did locate a relative that’s going to be very happy, that is going to get some of the money. But, you know, it makes me think about that story in the Bible. In Luke’s chapter 12 Jesus told the parable, verse 16 Luke 12:16, the ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully. And he thought within himself saying, ‘What will I do, because I have no room to bestow my fruits?’ Said, ‘Here’s what I’ll do. I’ll pull down my barns and build a bigger barns, and there I’ll bestow all the fruits and all my goods and I’ll say to my soul, “Soul, you’ve got many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, and be merry.”’ But God said unto him, “Thou fool! This night your soul will be required of you.
Then whose will those things be for which you provided?” So is he that lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich towards God. You know, Jesus said, “Do not lay up for yourself treasure on earth,” and this is Mathew 6:19, “where moth and rust corrupts, and thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourself treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal.” Everywhere I turn now, I’m seeing commercials and advertisements for people to invest in gold and silver. Yeah, that’s probably not a bad thing to do with some of your money but, you know, what good is it if you invest in gold down here and you lose eternal life, when you can walk on gold up there, you know? So we’re going to live in a city that God has made where there’s literally gold in the streets. And best thing to do is to invest your life and your means in spreading the good news. So what’s the right balance? Is it wrong for Christians to save? Is that called hoarding? How much should you give away? And I like the old Methodist principle that said, “You should earn all you can, save all you can, and give all you can.” And the Bible actually outlines how we should approach offerings, and tithe, and savings. There are principles for all those things in the Bible. And maybe someone would like to know, “What does the Bible have to say about your finances and your investments?” We have a study guide that addresses that, it’s full of scripture, and we’ll send it to you for free.
Pastor Jean Ross: The study guide is entitled, “In God We Trust,” and we’ll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and asks for it. The number to call for our resource line is 800-835-6747. And again, the study guide is “In God We Trust.” Just call and ask for that, and we’ll send it out to you, or you can go to the Amazing Facts website, amazingfacts.org, and you will be able to read that study guide online. And then, one other additional announcement before we go to the phone lines, if you’re close to your computer, we are live streaming the program this evening, and the address for that is live.amazingfacts.org, live.amazingfacts.org. Our first caller this evening is Emmanuel, and he is calling from New Mexico. Emmanuel, welcome to the program.
Emmanuel: Hello. Hi, Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening.
Pastor Jean Ross: Good evening.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hey, I know where dam in New Mexico is. Yeah, I’ve been there several times. And your question today?
Emmanuel: I was going to ask, it’s regarding Jesus second coming. How will He be returning? And now when he return, you know, there is just like a certain amount, like, 144,000 I go with him, or is it, you know, everybody, basically?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay. Well, when He comes, first of all, it says that we are caught up to meet Him in the air, and that’s in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, you can read verses 13 through the end of that chapter. Those that are alive when He comes are transformed and given glorified bodies. The dead in Christ rise when He comes those who died saved or died in faith, they will be resurrected at that time. And it’s not just a 144,000. The 144,000 that are spoken of in Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14, they are like last day apostles, they are a group, like, Jesus had 12 apostles when He came the first time, He filled them with His spirit and sent them out preaching and a great multitude were converted from their influence. Before Jesus comes the second time, He’s going to have 12 times 12,000 that are going to bring a great revival. So the 144,000 are not the only ones saved. It tells us in Revelation chapter 7, there’s a great multitude beyond that. And, you know, by the way, we do have a book on the 144,000. Emmanuel, we’ll send you a free copy if you just call and ask. Does that help with your question?
Emmanuel: Yes, sir. Yeah. Thank you.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: You’re welcome.
Pastor Jean Ross: Let me give you a few scriptures also dealing with the subject of the second coming of Jesus. I’m just going to list a few, talking about the manner of Christ coming. You’ve got Acts chapter 1 verse 9 through 11, talks about how Jesus descended, and it says, “He’ll come in like manner.” You’ve got Mathew chapter 24 verse 30 that talks about the coming of Christ being visible, you’ve got Luke 24, 36 through 43 that also talks about everyone seeing Jesus when He comes, as well as Revelation 1:7. And then, one more, Mathew chapter 24 verse 27 says that “it’s lightning that comes from the East and shines even to the West, so also the coming of the Son of man be. So there is just a tremendous amount of passages or scripture that talk about the second coming of Jesus being a spectacular event.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: And once again, if you want to get that free book that talks about the 144,000, Emmanuel, or anyone that’s listening, Pastor Ross will give you that number.
Pastor Jean Ross: The number is 800-835-6747, and the book, “Who Are the 144,000?” The number again is 800-835-6747. We have Bruce, who’s listening in Hidden Valley, California. Bruce, welcome to the program.
Bruce: I’m not far from England. Thank you very much.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah.
Bruce: You know, I just have a question about the two witnesses, not, you know, the second coming, but it seems like there’s a lot of things that are like Jesus, about the two witnesses at the end of the world. The way they die and then come back to life.
Pastor Jean Ross: You know, Bruce, get real close to your phone. We seem to have a little interference there.
Bruce: Okay. Okay, is this better?
Pastor Jean Ross: Yeah, there we go.
Bruce: Okay. Now (inaudible) with my hand. Hey, you know, the other thing is just that all the things that happened up to the seventh trumpet chapter 11 of the Revelation, especially, you know, verse 15 where they go into a cloud, and I guess everybody in the world knows because I’m reading it here right now that, you know, these two witnesses will die and come back to life just like Jesus told them about the resurrection of his own body. But I’m just saying that the earthquake that happens and the fear, the terrible fear that goes into the world when they see this happened, can you explain do we all have to die to get into heaven first as the transfiguration upon death?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right. First, let’s talk about the two witnesses, and before I forget, we do have a book that talks about the two witnesses, and it’s called “The Two Witnesses,” and it’s about the glorious mount, and it talks about Moses and Elijah when they appeared to Jesus, and the two witnesses is really the Word of God. Now your question is: Do we have to die in order to go to heaven? You know, the Bible says, “It’s appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment.” Let’s speak it in general terms that generally, people die, and then they face the judgment. But there’ll be some that don’t die. Enoch did not die. He walks with God. Some have thought, well, he must be one of the two witnesses, so he can die and fulfill that prophecy. Elijah did not die. He went to heaven in that fiery chariot. But there are many who will be alive and remain, Paul says, in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, we just quoted, also in 1st Corinthians chapter 15, it says, “We’ll be transformed.” And so, no, in the generation that are alive, it says that those that are worthy to escape those things, Jesus said, let us pray always that we’ll be worthy to escape these things, and to stand before the Son of man when he comes. And I want to be one of those that will escape those things. I wouldn’t mind at all if I miss out on death. But the majority of people, they die and then they’re going to be resurrected.
Pastor Jean Ross: You know, you brought up an interesting point how that the two witnesses in many ways parallel the experience of Jesus, and the two witnesses are referred to as the Word of God. Jesus is referred to as the Word of God in John chapter 1, so the Bible, the two witnesses, the law and the prophets, the Old and New Testaments paralleled to some degree the work of Christ, and the proclamation of truth and the revelation of the gospel, so that is an interesting connection that you brought up.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, it’s like two witnesses, sword with two edges. Two, it’s dual. Need two eyes to get your depth. And I appreciate that, Bruce. And who’s lined up?
Pastor Jean Ross: You know, we have that resource, Pastor Doug, you mentioned, “The Two Witnesses.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.
Pastor Jean Ross: And the number to call for that, Bruce, or anyone wanting to order that is 800-835-6747. 800-835-6747, and ask for the book on “The Two Witnesses,” we’ll send that out to you. We have Sheila who is listening on WMCA from Brooklyn, New York. Sheila, welcome to the program.
Sheila: Oh, hi, how are you?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening.
Sheila: Hello, good evening. I wanted to know how exactly are we supposed to keep the Sabbath? Does that include not driving, not touching money?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: No. There are people who are a little bit hyper orthodox, and Jesus dealt with that when He was here. I just shared a message a few months ago called Sabbath disputes, and Jesus had quite a few disputes because He healed people on the Sabbath, or the disciples were rubbing grain between their hands on the Sabbath, and some of the Pharisees and the scribes were accusing them, because they had attached all these manmade laws to God’s law. Not just the Sabbath but they had many other manmade laws about washing and all kinds of things. They were the traditions of men. And Jesus said, “You are setting aside the commandment of God to observe manmade tradition.” There’s nothing wrong with a person driving to church. I heard one pastor say, “Well, there’s a command in the Bible that you’re not supposed to kindle a fire on the Sabbath and every time you turn the ignition in your car, every one of those pistons fires in a spark plug and you’re kindling hundreds and thousands of fires a minute.” And, you know, that’s fanatical. When God told Moses tell the people don’t kindle a fire, the word “kindle” means to be building a fire. In the wilderness they had their food prepared in advance, it says that. They didn’t need the fire really for heat. They weren’t supposed to be cooking. If they had a fire already going, because they were cool and they put a log in the fire, that’s not kindling a fire. So the whole principle was get all the work out of the way. If you’re going to have wood for your fire, gather before Sabbath, He told them, “Don’t go out gathering it.” So touching money, well, if you make a donation, the Bible tells us that in the temple, people brought donations on the Sabbath, they touched money, there’s nothing wrong with that. You don’t want to be buying and selling.
Sheila: Yeah.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, we get actually quite a bit of information at a tremendous website called Sabbath Truth. It’s one of the most visited websites on this subject, because it’s really good. It’s called sabbathtruth.com. And it’s got articles on how do you keep the Sabbath, and did some good practical stuff. You know, the idea just, Sheila, to summarize it for you - I wish we had more time with these questions, but just to give you a quick answer – it’s a principle that when you love someone, and you’ve made a date, and you’ve got quality time with them, you want to get everything else out of the way so you can really spend time with them. The Sabbath is a time that God has blessed. It was made for men way back in the Garden of Eden, because He wants to have quality time with us. So we get everything else out of the way. I always fill up my car with gas on Friday or Thursday, so I don’t have to worry about that. Get all that out of the way, so you have really peaceful, restful time with God and fellow believers. It’s a good day to come together in fellowship and worship. Does that help a little?
Sheila: Yes, a lot. Thank you.
Pastor Jean Ross: Be sure to take a look at that website, Sheila. It’s sabbathtruth.com. I’m just looking at it right here and all kinds of resources, Bible studies. There’s videos that you can watch on the subject. So I think you’ll find it very helpful, sabbathtruth.com. Our next caller is Steve, and he is listening from Nashville, Tennessee. Steve, welcome to the program.
Steve: Yes, good evening, Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross. How are you tonight?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening. Doing great.
Pastor Jean Ross: Doing well.
Steve: Great. I’m a internet viewer and first time caller, and I’ll try to brief, but it’s hard to really form this into a question, there’s been a lot of current advances and a lot f things about pope as you’ve probably seen.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.
Steve: And I don’t want to bring up any faith necessarily, but it’s been in the news, and the Bible - I don’t know where it says in the Bible that Peter was necessarily the first pope. I mean, they said that on the news a lot. And I notice that the current pope now - again, I’m trying to be diplomatic here - I don’t know where that order comes from. I think that he was of a certain order and I think he was a Jesuit or something.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, this is unprecedented. Well, two questions - let me see if I can give you a succinct answer, a couple of important things you’re asking. One is, was Peter the first Pope? Well, Peter wasn’t a pope at all. Of course, the popes today, they don’t marry. You know, once they’re elected, they kind of live in palatial environment and wear regal robes, and that’s not what Peter did.
Steve: Yes.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: And furthermore, some people have taken the statement where Jesus said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,” and they say, “God built the church on Peter.” No, that’s not what Jesus was saying. Jesus said, “You are Peter,” and that word “Peter” there means petros, it means you are a rolling stone. But upon this Petra and the Petra Jesus is referring to is a statement Peter made that Christ was the messiah. And Christ was saying, “On this Petras, there’s some rock of immense proportions, I will build my church.” So Jesus is really contrasting Peter with the statement that He made. And in that same dialogue, a few verses later, Jesus says to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan.” So if you read, is that Mathew 16?
Pastor Jean Ross: Yes.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: In Mathew 16, not only does He say, “Upon this rock I’m going to build my church,” a few verses later He says to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan.” So the idea that Jesus built this church on someone that He had to rebuke as the devil is really preposterous, and of course, Peter then denied Him, and then was later converted and the first disciple really to the Gentiles. It could be argued Paul did a lot of that.
Pastor Jean Ross: You know, also Peter never acknowledged himself to be the foundation of the church. To the contrary, in 1st Peter chapter 2 verse 8, Peter says that “Jesus is the rock, He is the stone.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: That’s right.
Pastor Jean Ross: And in Acts, Peter speaks of Jesus as being the foundation of the church. So, you know, if he was the first pope, or if he was the foundation of the church, somebody should have let him know, because he didn’t feel that way.
Steve: Well, yeah, and in regards to that, I guess, it’s kind of a follow-up, what does Jesuit have anything to do with pope background, and why is that even significant? Because I don’t find that (inaudible)
Pastor Doug Batchelor: I’m glad you asked that question. And I’ll take just a minute here. I don’t think people understand the significance of what’s happening right now in Rome. You know, the news has just been fawning over the new pope and he maybe a wonderful man, and I have nothing against him (inaudible). But if people know their history, the Protestants were flocking out of the Catholic Church around the 15th century following, you know, Martin Luther’s break away and then you had some of the great reformers, a great reformation returning to the Bible happened during the time of Luther, and Zwingli, and Malanchton, and a number of others, Calvin. They wanted to get back to the scripture. And there was a big split with the Church of Rome, because Rome was really following a lot of traditions that had pagan trappings that weren’t biblical. Well, to combat this, there was a militia developed within the church that was to counter the reformation. And Ignatius Loyola in, I think, 1540, he formed the Jesuit order, and they would take very firm vows to really be the pope’s army to endure all kinds of privations and to - quite frankly, they were given the command to infiltrate to bring down Protestants who they believed are heretics. So it’s a special order and people ought to look up what the vow of the Jesuit is online for themselves. And I think they’re going to find it very enlightening. Now, I don’t know if they’ve changed their vow, but the way I used to read it, basically, they were calling for the extermination of Protestants, which would be your Methodists, and your Baptists, and your Lutherans, and, you know, most of your mainline churches, at least they used to be. But I think, Steve, most Protestant churches and most evangelicals have a little bit of historic amnesia right now. They don’t remember why Protestants separated from the Catholic Church. So, you know, we have a study on that, it’s called “Who is the Antichrist?” Now, friends, before you change channels, I just want you to know you ought to know your history, that if you go back 50 years, every major Protestant denomination identified the Papacy as antichrist. So if you’re a Lutheran, if you are a Methodist, if you are a Baptist, all of those churches used to believe that, but things had really changed. And when you say antichrist, it doesn’t mean that they’re diabolical. It meant that there were teachings that were against the teachings of Christ. There’s a lot of movies out there that have got this, kind of Rosemary Baby scenario and that’s not at all biblical. Now, I probably gave you more than you’re asking for, Steve. But hopefully, that answers that question. I think I took more than our regular three-minute budget.
Pastor Jean Ross: You know, the study guide that was mentioned is called “Who is the Antichrist?” We’ll send it to anyone who calls and asks for it. The number is 800-835-6747. Again, 800-835-6747.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: And, by the way, because we’ve had a lot of questions on this subject, I posted something at the Amazing Facts website. I’ve got a little blog there and it’s very simple, and it’s called the “Pope and Prophecy.” Talks about some of the things I just shared, called the “Pope and Prophecy.” You might want to go to Amazing Facts. You’ll see that right there on the home page.
Pastor Jean Ross: Our next caller is Craig, and he’s listening from Ontario on the internet. Craig, welcome to the program.
Craig: Thanks very much for taking my calls, Pastors.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, sir, how can we help?
Craig: I understand the biblical principles of divorce from marriage being death, or being adultery. What about separation? Is there any biblical scripture in regards to one separating? Or how long one can separate for?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you know, I think in 1st Corinthian 7, it does talk about, you know, if you have two pagans, and one of them learns about Christianity, as Paul was riding to the Corinthian Church it was largely a pagan city, filled with a lot of Roman slaves, and many of them were accepting Christianity but the spouse did not. A wife would believe but the husband wouldn’t. The husband would believe but the wife wouldn’t. And they’ll say, “Look, I didn’t buy into this. You’ve changed religions. I’m taking the kids and I’m leaving,” or whatever. And Paul told them, you know, as far as possible, try and reconcile and keep the relationship together, so that the believer can have a sanctifying influence on the unbelieving spouse and the children. But, if not, it said, you know, if they are determined to leave, you can’t handcuff someone to you. And he said, you know, in those cases, they should separate. Now Paul seems to indicate in that scenario, that the believer would be then free to marry. But I don’t think they’re really even free to marry until the other remarries and, you know, there’s no more redeemable threads in the relationship. And of course, I’m sure you’re acquainted with Mathew 5 and Mathew 19. Mathew 19, it says in verse 4, “Have we not read that heathen made them in the beginning made them male and female, and said for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and will join his wife, the two become one flesh. They’re no longer two but one flesh.” And then Jesus said that if someone marries another who is divorced, they’re committing adultery.
Pastor Jean Ross: Now we have a book on this subject that Pastor Doug, you wrote entitled “Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage,” I think you addressed this very thing.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. There is another verse, Craig, where it talks about, you know, Abraham in the case where there’s polygamy. Abraham took one wife too many, and it was a very painful thing. And Abraham had children with Hagar, but after Sarah had Isaac, there are lot of contention came to the family. God told Abraham to put away Hagar. And so, there was a separation that happened there. I guess you could call that more than a separation, it was divorce. No record that she ever remarried again. After Sarah died, Abraham remarried again. But there’s a lot of scenarios in that book. If you’d like a copy of that, Craig, or anyone, it’s called “Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage.”
Pastor Jean Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747, and again, the book “Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: We have time for another quick question.
Pastor Jean Ross: We have Wayne listening in California. Wayne, welcome to the program.
Wayne: Good evening, Pastors.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening.
Wayne: Quick question. Ezekiel 38 and 39 - I have a friend that’s trying to place Osama bin Laden and several others in the future prophecy, and I’m just curious where Ezekiel 38 and 39 plays in Israel, whether it has a real prophecy with revelation overall, just what’s your take is on that?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, there’s no question that Ezekiel 38 and 39 where it’s talking about Gog and Magog, is mentioned again in Revelation chapter 20. To get the picture of this, Gog and Magog is a name that was used in Ezekiel to summarize the enemies of God’s people, those were ancient enemies. You can find Gog and Magog mentioned, and I think it’s Genesis chapter 10, when it talks about the early nations when they divided. Magog simply means “out of” or “from the matrix of Gog.” So it’s talking about Gog and the children of Gog would attack God’s people. And you see, a lot of the same language that you find in Ezekiel 37-38, it’s repeated in Revelation 20 where it talks about that the city of God is surrounded by the wicked after the resurrection of the wicked, and it says they encamped the saints of the beloved like Gog and Magog, these are all the enemies of God’s people, it’s a generic term, and then fire comes down out of heaven and devours them. Some are trying to say this represents Russia and China, or things like that. And I guess you’re finding someone that’s trying to link it somehow to Osama bin Laden or some of these other modern events. Gog and Magog is really what happens at the end of the 1000 years. Now there were battles back in the time of Israel with some of their ancient enemies. But that’s really what this is talking about. And we’ve a lesson that talks about 1000 years of peace, Wayne. We’ll send that to you. It talks about the millennium and mentions these chapters, and Gog and Magog. You’re listening to Bible Answers Live.
Pastor Jean Ross: The number to call for that free Bible study is 800-835-6747 and the study guide mentioned is “1000 Years of Peace,” and we’ll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and asks for it. Pastor Doug, just before we take our break, we want to mention, if you’ve been listening maybe for a while, or perhaps the first time, we’ve got a great website filled with all kinds of resources. It’s amazingfacts.com.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, we’d mentioned it actually a few minutes ago. This website has layer after layer of Bible study material. There are videos that you can watch for free. There are sermons you can listen to for free. There are books that you can read for free. And if you’d like to buy, we will sell it all, too. We’re happy to be able to sell you things at the Amazing Facts bookstore, but we’re really committed to getting the message out. And we’re not done with your Bible questions. We’ll be doing more of that in just a moment. And so, call in with your Bible questions. We’ll be right back.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’re back, listening friends. If you’ve tuned in along the way, this is Bible Answers Live. B-A-L, Bible Answers Live, and if you want to call in with a Bible question, we still have a few lines open. It’s a free phone call. That number 800 - you remember the good old days when everybody just used 800. Now there’s all these other numbers. 800-463-7297 will bring you into our studio with Bible questions. We don’t really talk about romance or finance, but if you’ve got a Bible question, we’ll do our best to study the word together. And my name is Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. We’re going to go to our next caller, John, who is listening from Georgetown, South Carolina. John, welcome to the program.
John: Good evening, Pastor Doug.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening.
John: I have a quick question for you on Revelation chapter 17 verses 10 through 12, where it talks about seven kings, five have fallen.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.
John: One is, there is another not yet come, and then one is also the eighth.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.
John: And he is not seventh.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, do you want me to try and talk about that for a second?
John: Yes.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. When you read in Revelation 17, it talks about this woman. John, I’m just filling in our listeners for those who may not have a Bible in front of them. And Revelation 17 is a very important historically pivotal vision, talks about a woman that’s sitting on a scarlet beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. Now that beast appears in chapter 12 attacking the Church of God, that’s the woman, clothed in white, she got stars above her head, and the sun, and the moon, that’s God’s church, got the light of the world. Revelation 17, this other woman is the opposite. Her forehead’s got a name Babylon, mother of harlots. She’s obviously not a good woman. It’s a church that’s become unfaithful to the scriptures. The reformers identified this church with Rome, and a number of reasons, it talks about she has a golden cup in her hand, and many believe that was the cup connected with the mass. She’s adorned with gold and pearls, and dressed the regal apparel.
It says she’s got purple and scarlet. Those are the colors of the bishops and the cardinals. And it says she lives among seven hills, the seven heads of seven hills on which the woman sits. Rome is called the City of Seven Hills. And you get to the last verse in chapter 17, and it says that woman is a great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. Well, when John wrote Revelation, he was imprisoned by the Roman power, and Rome was the great city reigning over the kings of the earth. So, then it makes this cryptic statement. It says in verse 9, “Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.” All right, we have talked about that. But there also seven kings. Here’s another layer of interpretation in the seven heads. “Five are fallen, one is, the other is not yet come, and when he comes, he must continue a short time.” Now, that’s the main thing, I guess, you’re wondering about, John?
John: Right.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right. I believe what historically has been understood that Babylon also encompasses all the false religions that have persecuted God’s people. There are five kingdoms that were fallen, that had occupied God’s people prior to this vision. Those kingdoms were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, five were fallen. He said “one is.” The one that was in power, one is in power was Rome. But then it said there’s a seventh, that’s because Rome fell, Rome ruled by Caesars, what we call Pagan Rome, and then Rome began to be ruled by popes and it was called Papal Rome. But that received a deadly wound, and then it said, “That deadly wound would heal and it would come back into power again.” It says, “He is also the eighth, he is the seventh, goes away, comes back, he is also the eighth.” That’s been my understanding. Pastor Ross, you’ve probably heard about the seven popes and some of those interpretations.
Pastor Jean Ross: Yes. No, I agree with you, Pastor Doug. I think if you follow the symbolism of kings, in both Daniel and Revelation, the king would symbolize a kingdom.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right.
Pastor Jean Ross: And you mentioned these five principal nations that occupied God’s people throughout history.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: So hope that helps, John. Now we have (laughter), we got a lesson. It’s got a woman on the cover. That’s the woman right in this prophecy. It’s called “The Other Woman”. And so, if you’d like a copy of that, we will send you that lesson that deals with who is this woman in Revelation chapter 17. It’s called “The Other Woman.”
Pastor Jean Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747. And again, the study guide is entitled, “The Other Woman.” We’ll send it to anyone who calls and asks for it. Our next caller is Edith, and she is listening from Florida. Edith, welcome to the program.
Edith: Yes, hello.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening, Edith. You’re on the air. Your question tonight?
Edith: Okay. I just happened to turn on the TV and there was a Catholic priest and he was talking about the Holy Spirit, and he said that even the unsaved, the atheist and the agnostic have the Holy Spirit. And he said, “Because God gave it to them when He breathed on them the breath of life.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you know, without wanting to judge what he said, I would say there’s a difference. I believe when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that’s something that comes when you really receive Christ into your life and you make a decision to follow him. To say that a person has the Holy Spirit striving with him, it is true that God’s spirit will work on and speak to people all over the world. Now, in the Bible when Jesus talks about receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, He’s not talking about the breath of life. And from what you said it sounds like the priest is saying everyone that’s breathing has the Holy Spirit. Well, it’s true everyone that’s breathing has the gift of life from God. But that’s different really than saying that they are led by the Holy Spirit or they received the baptism of the spirit. If everyone had baptism of the spirit, then why pray for it? You know what I’m saying?
Edith: That’s true.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: And so, Jesus tells us that we’re to pray to receive the spirit.
Edith: Right. So there is a difference between Holy Spirit and spirit?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, the word “spirit” when it talks about breath of life, the priest might have been talking about that. It’s a similar word, it’s the word pneuma, which is where we get - it means “wind,” that’s where we get the word pneumonia. And so, he may have been talking about that. I don’t want to really judge what he’s saying, but I think I’d stop short of saying that, you know, all the atheists out there are filled with the Holy Spirit, that would not be correct.
Pastor Jean Ross: There is a difference scripture between spirit used as breath or life and the Holy Spirit is being the third person of the Godhead.
Edith: Right.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. Lot of people out there have the spirit of the devil. And the spirit of the devil and the Holy Spirit don’t get along very well. I doubt that they’re both cohabiting with people. But then, you know, even the Prodigal Son, the Holy Spirit went after him. God’s spirit does convict and strive and worked to save people. But it’s different when you start running from God and the spirit is received within. Then it becomes a governing influence in your life. Hey, Edith, we have a book we’ll send you for free if you’d like it. It’s called “Life in the Spirit.” That’s the one I’m looking for, “Life in the Spirit.”
Pastor Jean Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747. And the book is “Life in the Spirit.” We’ll send that to anyone who calls and asks for it. Again, 800-835-6747, ask for the book “Life in the Spirit.” Our next caller is Craig, and he is listening from Des Moines, Iowa. Craig, welcome to the program.
Craig: Yes, well, I called you many times. Pastor Doug, I know you get a lot of questions on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You were talking just a little bit about there. When I first called you, the very first time I called the show I just want to preface this. You mentioned that you were probably in the same church I was, because I was telling you that I was in a church, so you said if I didn’t receive the speaking and (inaudible) then I would go to hell. And I left the church shortly after that, because I lost all my faith in God. And I went back and came back to the Lord. So my question is, in Isaiah 28:13 and Isaiah 33:19, both of those seem to say that God’s going to have people speaking in an unknown tongue, that are going to His people. It kind of conflicts with the book I’ve actually spoken, you know, a different language. So what’d you think of all this?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you’re talking about Isaiah 33:19, it says, “With people of another tongue,” will I speak to these people?
Craig: Yeah. And 28:13 says “with stammering lips and another tongue.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, on the day of Pentecost, they said, you know, what did they mean by this babbling? The ones who were listening to them preached, their tongues may have stammered. You remember in the Bible when God sent Moses to the Egyptians, Moses said, “Lord, I am slow of tongue,” and that can be translated, “I am a stammering tongue,” especially when Moses, after 40 years of being out of Egypt, he was speaking the language of Midian, for him to go back into Egypt and speak Egyptian he said, “I’m going to stammer.” And God spoke through Moses nonetheless. The disciples were not educated men, and yet when the Holy Spirit came upon them, those stammering men, God was able to use them. I mean they were able to tell Peter was a Galilean when he was cursing and denying Jesus by his accent. But still God used Peter and the apostles to turn the world upside down even though they were not formally educated. And then God, you know, the Lord gave the gift of tongues to the early church, and people went everywhere speaking in these other languages. If you look at - and I know you know this verse, in Mark chapter 16, where Jesus said, “They will speak with other tongues.”
Craig: Yes.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, when God filled the disciples with the Holy Spirit, they were able to miraculously speak in languages they formally had not known or studied, for the purpose of preaching the gospel, it wasn’t just to stammer.
Craig: Right. So, do you feel we should be praying for this gift, this baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the speaking in tongues? Do you think people should pray for that?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think we ought to pray for the gifts of the spirit as God would give them to us, and that would be based on 1st Corinthians 12, Paul says he doesn’t give all the gifts to any one person. Paul said, “Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Have all gifts of healing?” Now I’m paraphrasing now, but, you know, different gifts were given to different people. So I think we ought to say, “Lord, I want to serve you, I pray for the Holy Spirit, and however you choose to distribute the gifts to me.” Now, I prayed for the gift of tongues once when I was driving down the road and I picked up a Mexican hitchhiker, he didn’t speak English, and I spoke almost no Spanish, and I was asking God to help me talk to him because we drove for three days, from dam in New Mexico to California in a very slow truck. And you know what? By the time I landed in Northern California, I happened to speaking a whole lot more Spanish. I felt like God answered my prayer.
Craig: Yeah, because I prayed for in that church every single day for six years solid, every single day. And everybody in the whole church had this gift, but I didn’t.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Have you ever read my book on tongues, Tim?
Craig: I read that, too, yeah.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: You read my book called “Understanding Tongues?”
Craig: You bet.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay. Well, for anyone else out there, if you want to know more about it, we’ll send it to you, too. But, yeah, so I think the gift of tongues is a miraculous gift to speak in languages that formally are not.
Pastor Jean Ross: Let me just add one other thought to that. God will give the gift of tongues where it’s needed. And of course, at the time when it was first given to the apostles, you had people from different cultures, different lands that were all there, and they all spoke different languages. And it was a needful in communicating the gospel. Today, in North America, most people speak English.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Don’t you speak a little Afrikaan?
Pastor Jean Ross: I do speak a little Afrikaans.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Say something for us.
Pastor Jean Ross: [Speaking Afrikaans]
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup, that sounds like tongues to me.
Pastor Jean Ross: But where it’s needed God will provide it, if it’s for sharing the gospel.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right. Hey, thanks, Craig. We hope that helps a little bit. Good verse here on Isaiah.
Pastor Jean Ross: Let me give you the number again if you’d like to get the book “Understanding tongues.” It’s 800-835-6747. We have T.J. who is listening from Lincoln, Nebraska. T.J., welcome to the program.
T.J.: Hey, there, I was wondering about Luke 23:5, when the (inaudible) were attempting Jesus about the resurrection and at the end Jesus was talking about marriage in the resurrection, but, of course - all right, I’ll do my question, could you explain verse 35 of Luke 20?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: You want me to read it? “Those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.”
T.J.: Yes, that’s the one.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: “But they can die no more, they are equal to the angels and are sons of God.”
T.J.: Yes, precisely. But basically, my question essentially was - so people who are married on earth currently, will they be married still after the resurrection, or they’d just be like brothers and sisters? Did the Bible has anything on that?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. Well, let me tell you what I think. The original plan for marriage with God - He told Adam and Eve that, you know, men and women become one flesh, and then He also told them to be fruitful, multiply, and to fill the earth. So one of the things that the human race was to do was to populate the planet and, you know, have it be a paradise. I don’t know that it was God’s plan for them to continue to procreate and populate until folks were spilling off into the moon. I think the idea was to fill the earth. In other words, you know, to adequately populate the earth and subdue it. It may not have been God’s plan obviously for them to continue to procreate. So when Adam and Eve get to heaven, assuming Adam and Eve never got remarried when their spouse died - we don’t know what age Eve was, whether she outlived Adam, probably died before him - will God give them divorce papers when they get to heaven? You know, I kind of think in the case - I’m kind of bordering a little bit on my personal theory - I believe in the case where there have not been any of these interruptions with multiple marriages or deaths, and that people will be still married, they’re going to enjoy each other’s company. They’re one flesh on earth and in heaven they’re going to be best friends. But in the case where you’ve got folks like Jacob and David who had multiple wives, I think we’re all going to be ultimately married to Christ, I mean, He’s going to be our first love. And it’s not that, you know, relationships will be a little different. David and Jonathan were best friends, but they could never spend time together because of the politics of the day. Jonathan’s father was trying to kill him. I think in heaven David and Jonathan are really going to enjoy each other’s friendship. And so, everything is different there, and it’ll be better. I meet young people, and they think, “Oh, well, if Jesus comes before I get married, I won’t enjoy heaven.” And I tell them, “Oh, don’t you worry about it, you just get there, and I promise you’re going to enjoy heaven.” So I don’t know if that helps answer that at all, T.J. I do have a book talking about marriage, divorce, and remarriage. And I addressed this verse in there.
Pastor Jean Ross: The number to call for that book is 800-835-6747. We mentioned it a little earlier, the book is “Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage.” And if you have a Bible-related question, we have some phone lines that are still open. The number here to the studio is 800-463-7297. That’s 800-463-7297. If you call now, we have a good chance of getting your call on before the end of the program. Our next caller is Robert and he is listening from Minnesota. Robert, welcome to the program.
Robert: Hey, how’s everyone?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing great. Thanks for calling.
Robert: Well, thanks for answering my call again. I have two quick questions.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.
Robert: One is - I don’t know, just probably may have heard that, you know, history channel that’s aired in that Bible series?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.
Robert: I’ve been watching it just to see how accurate they’re shown. One of my questions was, you know, so far I’ve noticed that they have been leaving stuff out, right? They’ve left out the whole story about King Solomon. And I was kind of wondering what your kind of opinion on that series as in, like, why they’re leaving out what I think was important stuff in there?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right. Let me deal with that first. I just came back from a religious broadcaster’s convention in Nashville where the producers and the gentleman who played Jesus were there at the convention. And that was the day that the film was being released the day before and they were promoting it. They have a wonderful story. They’re very sincere. They’re trying to get the word out. I understand the struggle that they face in trying to recreate Bible. It’s a big book. And, you know, you would need a five-hour movie just to accurately cover the life of Joseph, just the life of Joseph, it takes half the book of Genesis. And the budget would be millions and millions. So I think they did the best they could with the minimal budget they had, and it was a pretty good budget, but for a 10-hour series they did the best they could do. I have never seen any Hollywood production of the Bible that hasn’t diverged somehow. I mean, it’s, first of all, even the actor who was playing Jesus was telling us, he said, you know, I’m not worthy. So, how do you play Jesus? You fail as soon as you start because how do you play the perfect man? And, you know, he was talking about the frustrations of trying to act that part. We’ve done recreations at Amazing Facts where we have someone that plays the part of Jesus and, you know, we always know that we’re just going to do the best we can do humanly. So I’ve only seen a couple of parts of episodes of the program, I can’t comment, you know, intelligently about the whole thing. But I cut them slack, because I think they’re doing the best, but most Hollywood productions kind of fall short of recreating the Bible.
Robert: Yeah, like, because King Solomon wrote proverbs, right?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup.
Robert: Yeah. I mean, I just thought, you know, they could add just a little bit, you know.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. And they left out a lot. Just because they didn’t have the budget, they probably left out most of the Minor Prophets, too.
Robert: Yeah, I suppose. And my other question is that, well, it’s kind of is there significance of why the new pope for the Catholic Church is a Jesuit, the first Jesuit?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. You know, you may have missed it. Someone called in with that question a little earlier tonight. And we’ve recommended that people - if they want to find out more about that, that they look at what the official, the old Jesuit vow was. Now, if you go to the Catholic website, they’re going to have a little more tamed version of what a Jesuit is. But the early Jesuits were really, given the specific task to undermine and overthrow Protestants. It was sort of a militia, an army, the spiritual army which swears their allegiance to the pope. It is unusual that there’s now a pope who is a Jesuit. And, you know, he seems like a lovely man. I probably agree with him on certain conservative positions, but what we’re talking about is the philosophy of these original organizations. The Jesuits were a very militant group in their commission, and people ought to read up on that. Hope that helps a little bit, Robert. And need to go on, give another caller a chance.
Pastor Jean Ross: We have Tim listening from San Antonio, Texas. Tim, welcome to the program.
Tim: Hey, how’re you doing? Yeah, this is Tim, the true evangelist. And how’re you doing, Doug, and so forth?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’re doing good. Both me and so forth are okay.
Tim: I’m almost on my third time. Well, I’m completing my third time through the Bible, and I can’t remember what book it was now, but looking back I think it’s Daniel, but Gabriel says, “Hey, I was fighting for about 21 days, I had to call Michael to come and take my spot (inaudible).”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Daniel chapter 10.
Tim: And what I wanted to know - what is it again?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Daniel chapter 10.
Tim: Okay. And I want to know is that right now, I know - I just want to ask you, right now, is there battles going on where angels are basically fighting other angels, good against evil until the end? Is there a war going on that we don’t see?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, you can read also in Revelation chapter 12 where it says, “There is a war in heaven, and Christ and his angels fought with the dragon and his angels.” So, do angels fight? Yes. It talks about this contention between the Michael, the archangel, and the devil or his representatives, they are in Daniel. God was wanting to impress the king of Persia to let the people of Israel go home and the devil was trying to keep them in captivity and resisting. And Daniel was praying over that. Furthermore, you find that the devil contesting with Michael, the archangel, during the resurrection of Moses. That’s in the book of Jude. And we have guardian angels. Jesus said, they are angels speaking of children, “do behold the face of my father in heaven.” We know that the devil and his angels would like to do us harm, and God and His angels must protect us. And so, I’m sure there are titanic battles between good and evil spirits. Also, there’s a war going on. We don’t wrestle against flesh and blood, but there’s these principalities and powers in heavenly places. And so, absolutely, there are battles between good and evil angels and we need to pray that God will guard us and He usually answers that prayer through His angels. I’m trying to think what book we’ve got that talks more specifically about the angels.
Pastor Jean Ross: Well, you know, just a reference, you mentioned we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, that’s Paul in Ephesians chapter 6 verse 12, if you’re looking for a reference on that.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh, I thought of a book. Hey, Tim, you need to get a hold of a book. You can read it free online. It’s called “The Great Controversy.” And in that book there’s a chapter that talks about good and evil spirits. And it has lots of scripture. It’s an excellent chapter. Anybody out there, you can order the book, “Great Controversy,” just type it into Amazon and they’ll send you a copy. It’s small price usually, because it’s a classic, but tremendous book, and it’s got a whole chapter about the battle between the good and angels, lots of references.
Pastor Jean Ross: Well, do we have time for one more?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Let’s see what happens.
Pastor Jean Ross: All right. We got Brandon from Illinois. Brandon, we have about a minute and a half for your question.
Brandon: Yeah, I was just calling to ask about Revelation 17.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.
Brandon: And (inaudible) verses 3 through 6, and I was wondering if that might possibly refer to America at all?
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, part of it. Not so much Revelation chapter 17. But when you’re reading, before you get to 17 it talks about the same beast you find in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12. And in Revelation 12, it says there’s this second beast - I’m sorry, 13.
Pastor Jean Ross: 13.
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you, Pastor Ross. Chapter 13. There’s a second beast that rises up out of the earth, and it’s chapter 13 verse 11. And that second beast, we believe is the United States of America. “Two horns like a lamb, speaks like a dragon.” And listening friends, matter of fact, it’s probably not good for you to do this, but I went on YouTube and I typed in my name - I hope you’ll all forgive me - and I saw one of the most popular sermons people were looking at, it was the US in Bible prophecy. And if you want to watch that, friends, and Brandon, I’ve got a whole message that talks about the US in Bible prophecy based on that chapter.
Pastor Jean Ross: We have a study guide also called “The US in Bible Prophecy.” And if you call our resource line, we’ll send that to you. The number is 800-835-6747. And again the study guide is called “The US in Bible Prophecy.”
Pastor Doug Batchelor: Listening friends, I hope that you’ve been blessed and learned something new, and we pray you’ll keep this ministry in your prayers. Lots happening in the world today, we need to get the word out. I’ll be heading off to the Philippines tomorrow. I invite your prayers for the Lord to bless that series in Manila. The program will go on. And we’d love to hear from you at amazingfacts.org. God bless.
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