Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact?
Back in 1987, on a commuter flight from Portland, Maine to Boston, the pilot, Henry Dempsey, heard an unusual noise near the rear of the aircraft shortly after takeoff. When they reached about 4,000 feet, Captain Dempsey turned the controls over to the co-pilot and went back to check on the 15 passengers in the turbo prod. As he reached the tail section, the plane hit an air pocket and Dempsey was bounced against the rear door. He quickly discovered the source of the mysterious noise— the rear door had been improperly latched prior to takeoff and it flew open. Dempsey was instantly sucked out of the tiny Beechcraft ’99. The co-pilot heard the wind rushing to the cabin and he saw the red light indicating an open door. It became obvious what happened. He quickly radioed the nearest airport requesting permission for an emergency landing. He reported the pilot had fallen out of the plane and asked the helicopter to search the area of ocean over which they’d been flying.
After the plane landed, the ground crew was astonished to find Dempsey alive desperately clinging to the outward stair railing of the aircraft. Somehow, when the stair door popped open and his upper body fell through the door, he instinctively seized the handrail. Amazingly, for 10 minutes, Dempsey endured the force of howling 200-mile an hour wind while holding on. He barely kept his head from hitting the runway, which is only 12 inches away. According to the news reports, Dempsey was holding on to the stair railing with such tenacity of force, it took the airport rescue team several minutes to pry him loose.
Friends, you know, Jesus said in Matthew 24, “Only those who endure to the end will be saved.” Stay with us, friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live!
[PROGRAM INTRODUCTION]
Pastor Jëan Ross: Welcome to Bible Answers Live brought to you by Amazing Facts Ministries. Are you looking for a clear, concise answer to your most challenging Bible questions? Maybe you’re struggling to understand difficult passages of Scripture. If so, you’ve come to the right place. Join us now as we open God’s Word to discover His will and find honest, practical answers to your Bible-related questions. This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible question, call us Sundays from 7 to 8 P.M. Pacific Standard Time at 800-GOD-SAYS. That’s 800-463-7297. Now, let’s join our host, author, speaker, and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Doug: Welcome, listening friends. We’re very thankful that you have chosen to tune in to another edition of Bible Answers Live and if you are new to this broadcast, you can probably tell from our title that this is a live, international, interactive Bible study. And we invite people each Sunday evening to give us a call. If you have a Bible question, we’ll do our best to find the answer together in the Word of God. We’ve got some computer programs here with many different versions of the Bible and some study software to help us quickly access the truth and we’ll search the word together. If you have a question, call the toll-free number. We still have lines open and that’s 800-GOD-SAYS; 800-463-7297. And once again, my name is Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Jëan Ross: And my name is Jëan Ross. Good evening, Pastor Doug. Welcome back! You just came…
Pastor Doug: Good evening, Pastor Jëan…
Pastor Jëan Ross: …back a little earlier last week, I guess, right, all the way from India?
Pastor Doug: A few days ago. Came back from India and had a tremendous experience there. We were doing some evangelistic meetings and encountered a little bit of persecution. But that is always true if you’re preaching the truth and people are making decisions. Our last meeting, we had somewhere between 15 and 18,000 people…
Pastor Jëan Ross: Fantastic.
Pastor Doug: …that attended the program and over the last three months, our teams that have been there have seen 15,000 baptisms— over 15,000. And so, we’re just praising the Lord. It’s been a great experience. People will find a report this week on the Amazing Facts website telling more about the meetings. And I just wanted to take a moment and thank everybody who both prayed for and supported this mission project. It was a real blessing and a great success.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Before we go to the questions tonight, let’s just start with prayer. Dear Father, again, we ask that You be with us this evening as we open up Your Word, finding answers to the questions that are called in. We ask in a special way that You be with those listening and those that will call in. In Jesus’ name. Amen!
Pastor Doug: Amen.
Pastor Jëan Ross: You opened the program talking about this gentleman who fell— the co-pilot— who fell out of the plane but held on for dear life until he’s safely made it to the ground. You know, Matthew 24 says, “He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved.” But some people say, “Well, isn’t it that we are raptured up before the tribulation? Thus, why do we need to endure? What is it that we need to endure?”
Pastor Doug: Well, that is a very important question. There are three principal views among Christians and I, you know, respect those who may disagree. When it comes to the tribulation virtually, all Christians agree. It’s undeniable. Jesus said there’ll be a time of trouble such as there never has been. But the question is, does the Lord catch up the saved before that time of trouble? That’s those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. Some believe that it’s called mid-trib or in the midst of the tribulation that this rapture takes place. And others believe it’s post or after the tribulation then the Lord catches us up to meet Him in the air.
Traditionally, the churches believed for the last 1900 years that the church is here on earth during the tribulation and that’s why the Lord challenges us to hang on— endure— don’t give up. And we always like to refer to the examples in the Bible. The tribulation, of course, in Revelation, it’s synonymous with the seven last plagues. And you have to ask the question, were the children of Israel still in Egypt when the ten plagues fell? And the answer is obviously yes, they were there. But God preserved them through that. They were delivered. They began their journey to the Promised Land after the ten plagues. A matter of fact, it was the tenth plague that was the signal— the harbinger— to begin their journey.
In the same way, it’s at the end of the seven last plagues that the world ends and we are caught up to go to our heavenly King. So, the idea that we are caught away before tribulation is just really not Bible precedent for that. That’s why Jesus said, “He that endures to the end, you’ll be hated of all nations for My name’s sake. There’ll be a time of trouble such as never has been.” And Paul says, “All that live godly will suffer persecution. It is through tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God.” It doesn’t say He saves us from it but through it. And so, a lot of people have questions about this and I’d love to believe. It’s very popular to believe that, “Hey, you know, the Lord’s going to rapture us out. We don’t need to fortify our faith to endure this time of struggle.” But the Bible just doesn’t teach that. It’s a dangerous thing, I think, for… you’re better off being prepared for a crisis than having a very… a reckless faith saying, “I don’t need to worry about being close to the Lord and trusting Him during this time.”
Now, if our friends have questions about this— and we hope you do— we want to give you the Bible answers. I don’t believe the Bible teach these three different truths. I think there’s one truth. And the truth on the subject of the relationship between the rapture and the tribulation is very clear in Scripture when you compare Scripture with Scripture. And we have a free offer to tell people about that.
Pastor Jëan Ross: The free offer is “Anything But Secret.” It’s a book written by Pastor Doug Batchelor and we’d like to make this available to all of you who are listening. If you have any questions on the subject of the Second Coming, of when… is it before the rapture, after the rapture or when does the tribulation fit into that? Give us a call ask for this, “Anything But Secret.” And to call, just call the resource number. The number is 1-800-835-6747. Again, that’s 1-800-835-6747.
The beginning of the program, we’d like to take some Internet questions. This is the first one for tonight. “Pastor Doug, is Allah the same as Yahweh and is Islam an offshoot of Judaism or Christianity?”
Pastor Doug: Good questions. Well, it’s typically believed that the three great monotheistic religions of the world are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And there are historical connections between the three religions— of course, they’ve all sprang from Abraham— they can all find their roots in father Abraham. There is a linguistic connection between Elohim and Allah in the title for God but, you know, there’s a fork in the road at some point. Their definition in Islam of God is different than the Christian understanding of one God being reflected in the three Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And the two principal sons of Abraham were Ishmael and Isaac. And it’s the branch of Ishmael that goes off and is typically… grows into the religion of Islam whereas Isaac, it’s from his ancestors you get the Jews and the Christians.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Okay, great! Our next question, “I know that the devil can’t read our thoughts but can he put thoughts in our mind and if he can, should we then pray out loud when we are tempted?”
Pastor Doug: Good question. Well, the devil, as they’ve said, he cannot read your mind. I mean, sometimes, he can make a good educated guess but even our spouse can do that. So that doesn’t take a supernatural ability. The devil cannot easily tempt us and so much of the temptation— the vast majority of temptation— is not audible. It’s in the mind. And so, the devil does have the ability to try to plant thoughts in our minds. You know, we can do that. Even through speech, I am putting thoughts in the minds of those who are listening. So, that again, is not a supernatural ability.
Third part of the question is, should we then pray silently so he doesn’t know what we’re praying? I’d say no. Jesus is our example. We know that there are many times Jesus prayed out loud and Christ said we should not pray out loud to be seen of men. But that was not a mandate to never pray out loud because we would not have John 17 in the Bible if Jesus hadn’t prayed out loud or in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said, “Father, if there’s any other way, take this cup from Me.” So, the devil trembles when people pray. The prayer of Solomon was out loud. Daniel 9 was out loud; Hannah’s prayer was out loud. And there’s nothing wrong with praying out loud as there is nothing wrong with praying in our heart and the circumstances might dictate what is appropriate at the time. A Christian should not try to make a spectacle of themselves for show. But sometimes, when I’m alone— I don’t think there’s anyone around— I do pray out loud. Other times, it’s just in my heart and God hears that just as well.
Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, it seems to almost reinforce it when we can pray out loud…
Pastor Doug: Yes, because we’re affected by our own words.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Right.
Pastor Doug: Well, they’ve already proven, first of all, prayer is not to inform God. Jesus said, “Your heavenly Father knows what things you have need of before you ask Him.” So, prayer is really to bring us up to God, it’s not to bring God down to us. And when we pray out loud and we hear ourselves articulating what these needs are or the confessions, I think it strengthens our own resolve of our direction is.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Absolutely! Alright, well, let’s go to the phone lines. John is listening on the Internet, calling from Rockland, New York. Welcome to the program, John.
John: Yes, hello.
Pastor Doug: Hi!
John: Hello. I have some questions of… a couple of questions.
Pastor Doug: Okay. We’ll take them one at a time.
John: Okay. My first one is, when Adam and Eve were the only ones on earth and they had their two sons at the time, Cain and Abel…
Pastor Doug: Yes.
John: How did they re-populate the earth? I mean, only Cain. How did he re-populate the earth when he and his parents were the only ones on earth?
Pastor Doug: Well, it tells you in Genesis that “Cain took his wife,” and you might be wondering, “Where did she come from?”
John: Yes.
Pastor Doug: If you keep reading in the Bible, John, in Genesis chapter 5, it tells us that Adam lived a 130 years and begat a son in his own likeness— that was Seth— and it says, “The days of Adam after he had Seth were 800 years and he had sons and daughters.” So, it’s telling us that all along the way, Adam and Eve also had sons and daughters. It was not considered wrong to marry your sister back in the beginning because man’s blood was perfect and there was no genetic problem.
John: Okay.
Pastor Doug: When you think about it, Eve was something like a sister of Adam— they both had the same father and mother, right?
John: Yes. Okay. And some of… the next question. Where does it say in the Bible that… it says, actually, it says in the Bible that the church should pay taxes. How come, nowadays, the church does not pay taxes?
Pastor Doug: Well, actually, Jesus didn’t say the church should or shouldn’t pay taxes. Someone asked them whether it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar and Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.” There’s a difference between a church organization paying taxes on the property and members paying taxes. I’m a Christian, I’m a church member but I pay taxes. Pastor Jëan is a Pastor and he’s a Christian and he pays taxes. And you’re not even an American citizen yet, are you?
Pastor Jëan Ross: No, I’m not a citizen but I pay taxes [laughing].
Pastor Doug: Yeah, you’re married to a citizen. Yes [laughing]. So, you know, Christians pay taxes but because churches are typically places that serve the community many years ago, they voted that they would not tax the property of church buildings because it provides service to a community, okay? Hope that helps a little, John.
John: Yes. It does.
Pastor Doug: Thank you very much for your question.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Thanks for calling, John. Our next caller is Jeremiah, listening on KJHV from Austin, Texas. Welcome to the program, Jeremiah!
Jeremiah: How you doing?
Pastor Jëan Ross: Good!
Jeremiah: My question is about the first chapter of the book of Ezekiel about the vision that Ezekiel’s seen. I just wondered if you could kind of explain a little bit about like what was the purpose in the man behind of what he was seeing and, you know, and what were those symbols representing, you know, like talks about like the wheel within the wheel and the four different creatures and… I don’t know if you could just kind of elaborate on that a little bit.
Pastor Doug: Alright. Well, you’re talking about, Jeremiah, one of the deepest prophecies— one of the deepest apocalyptic prophecies— meaning, all these symbols were given in the entire Bible. So, I’ll take a stab at a couple of points. The four creatures that Ezekiel sees around the throne are parallels to the same four creatures you find in Revelation. Is that chapter 4?
Pastor Jëan Ross: Chapter 4.
Pastor Doug: Chapter 4 of Revelation where, if I’m not mistaken, it’s a lion, an eagle, a calf, and a man. And, some have said this represents the four characteristics of God which one… the eagle is known for its sight— the discernment of God. Some have likened that to the Gospel of Mark— the speed in which the Gospel of Mark portrays Jesus. Then you’ve got the man, which is the humanity of Christ and that’s like the Gospel of Luke, the physician. You’ve got the lion, which is the majesty, the kingliness of Christ, and that’s compared to the Gospel of Matthew. And the ox, which is the sacrifice because they were beasts of sacrifice and service, which is a characteristic of Christ, and that’s compared to the Gospel of John.
So these four Gospels and these four creatures are like four perspectives on the character and the nature of God. Now, then you ask about the wheel within the wheel. I’m sorry, I know these are quick answers but we try to just budget about 3 or 4 minutes per call to get as many as possible.
Jeremiah: I know it’s a hard question [laughing].
Pastor Doug: It’s a deep question and that the wheel within the wheel— I’ll just give you a few things to think about. I believe Ezekiel was shown one of the great mysteries of the universe. And it is true that all of life is composed of wheels within a wheel. For instance, if you take a telescope and aim it towards space, our earth is rotating and the moon rotates around it, so it’s a wheel within a wheel. And then, of course, the moon and the earth are going around the sun—our whole solar system is a series of wheels within a wheel. And then the galaxy which is comprised of millions of suns that are spinning— some of them were solar system— are wheels within a wheel. The galaxy is a spiral of suns. And so… and now, they believe the whole universe is one enormous spiral that is moving in a circuit.
Then, you take a microscope and you look at a cell of life and you’ve got the wall and the nucleus and it’s almost like a wheel within a wheel. And then you go even to the atom. And when you got the electrons and the protons rotating around the core, it seems like all matter is composed of a wheel within a wheel. So, Ezekiel, I think looked into one of the great mysteries of creation and life when he saw this vision. It also tells us about the way God works in our lives in the providence of God. He is like… it’s like a watch, a machine— a bunch of wheels within a wheel where everything seems to work perfectly. So that’s just some thoughts. It’s much deeper and I certainly don’t claim to understand it all.
Jeremiah: Yes. Do you know of any good material to get a hold of to even start to even study that type of thing?
Pastor Doug: You know, if you go to… on the Internet, you can download a Bible study program that’s free called e-Sword. And e-Sword has a series of commentaries and some of their commentaries on Ezekiel are very good but it’ll take you some time to study. And then, of course, you…
Jeremiah: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: …can go to a Christian bookstore and ask for a commentary on Ezekiel. There are several there. Hey, appreciate your question, Jeremiah. Hope that helps a little bit.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Thank you for calling. Our next caller is Brandon and he’s listening on the Internet from San Diego, California. Welcome to the program, Brandon.
Brandon: Yes, good evening, Pastor Doug Batchelor and all company of all.
Pastor Doug: And how can we help you?
Brandon: My question is, I was wondering back during the time of the Bible times, how did the children of Israel keep the Sabbath and carry on their… continue to work there with the surrounding nations at the time. How is that possible to, I mean, wouldn’t the enemy attack during the time of the Sabbath?
Pastor Doug: Well, yes. A matter of fact, you don’t even need to go to ancient biblical wars during the 6-day war. I believe that the Arabs would sometimes… you know, the Arab celebrate— Islam— celebrates Friday as their Sabbath. And there’s been more than one time then they exploited the Jews’ sacredness of the Sabbath and they would attack on that day. But, you know, historically both in the Old Testament and even in modern times, the Jews would do their best to keep the Sabbath holy but if their country was threatened, the soldiers would mobilize and do everything they needed to do. Obviously, there are some wars that the children of Israel were involved in where they would have to besiege a city which would last for months. When the kingdom of David, they besieged Amon. Well, that seemed to have lasted for many months. Well, you know, if the enemy forces try to attack on Sabbath, they didn’t just say, “Look, you know, we’re resting today.” I’m sure that they mobilized for war. It’s the ideal.
That’s why Jesus says in Matthew 24, Christians should pray that we don’t have to flee in the winter or on the Sabbath day because running for your life in the Sabbath is not the best way to keep it.
Brandon: That answers it. Thank you, thank you.
Pastor Doug: Alright. Hey, I appreciate your question. Good question.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Ken is calling from Tampa, California, listening on KHFL. Welcome to the program, Ken!
Ken: Good evening, gentlemen!
Pastor Doug: Evening.
Ken: Can you hear me alright?
Pastor Doug: Loud and clear.
Ken: Alright. My question is refer… I have two. One’s about an altar and one’s about a passage in the Bible.
Pastor Doug: Okay.
Ken: When Moses left Israel and he forwarded to Goshen on his mission to help his people.
Pastor Doug: Right.
Ken: And there’s a passage and I’m not sure exactly what it is because I don’t have the Bible in front of me but something that is written by an author that says, “He got permission and just leave and it came to pass, by the way, in the end, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him.” What is that all about?
Pastor Doug: That’s in Exodus chapter 4 and it would probably come with verse 24. Evidently— and this is one of the stories in the Bible where you’re getting the headlines but you don’t get the fine print, you know, what’s going on behind the scenes. The best commentaries I’ve seen and an explanation I’m satisfied with is Moses, of course, had been living in Median. He had fled from Egypt. Probably, he had not circumcised the two sons that he had with Zipporah, or at least one of them. And she opposed it. She thought it was barbaric but it was a covenant that Abraham had made and as Moses now is going to be an example and a leader for the Jewish people to have them come and to worship God, and to re-consecrate the whole nation to God, in his own family, he had failed to fulfill the covenant with his own sons.
And so, there must have been some contention between he and Zipporah over this because finally, God says, “Look, if you’re going to go and lead my people out to obey Me, and you’re not even obeying the basic covenant of circumcision in your own family, then you know, you’re at risk of judgment. It’s like the angel of the Lord met him on the way the same way the angel met Balaam when he was on the way to disobey God. And so, Zipporah relented and she said, “Alright then, you’re a bloody man. This is barbaric but we’ll do it your way!” So, and then God let him continue with his mission. That’s the best explanation that I’ve heard on that… those brief verses there.
Ken: Well, thank you. And the other question is really short. Well, have you heard of an author and the book? The title is called, “The Hidden Bible.” And the author is William Larry and the basic… I mean, I haven’t... it’s like the copyright was 1952, the last one. And I haven’t found any other [inaudible 00:23:51] but he’s chosen the importance of the main [inaudible 00:23:57] began to tear through of all the people and now the moral traditions, they were handed down from the Jews— from the patriarchs— but very importantly, the understanding of their culture and of the meaning of the words that are in the Bible that we have. It’s really, really… have you heard of it?
Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, I have heard of it and I would say that there is some truth to that. I’m a person who believes that the names in the Bible do frequently have a symbolic meaning that plays into the story. I just talked about that this weekend with the 144,000. Those names all mean something. You can find the meaning right there in Genesis 29:30. But you got to be… you don’t want to go so far trying to figure out what the different names mean and what, you know, what the story is behind that because I’ve also found names in the Bible where you ask ten different scholars, they say the name meant ten different things. And see, sometimes, you can’t be sure with these ancient words. But there is something to that. I haven’t read the book, “The Hidden Bible.” I have heard of it and I do think that we can have an enhanced study by finding out what are the meanings of these words. Okay?
Ken: Well, thank you… thank you very much for your time, gentlemen. Keep up the good work!
Pastor Doug: Alright. I appreciate your prayers. Thank you, Ken.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Stanley is listening on the Internet from Irvington, New Jersey. Welcome to the program, Stanley!
Stanley:: Hi, how are you doing today?
Pastor Doug: Good!
Stanley: Yeah. First of all, you know, praise God for you, Doug Batchelor and Amazing Facts. I’ve been supporting the ministry for a long time and it’s been a truly blessing in my family.
Pastor Doug: Well, praise the Lord! How can we help you, Stanley, tonight?
Stanley: Yes. 1 Samuel chapter 28, dealing with the witch of Endor?
Pastor Doug: Yes.
Stanley: I understand, you know, the philosophy and the… with the way that the Bible preaches that we understand that Samuel… I mean, yes, Samuel is not Samuel. He’s pretty much a demon…
Pastor Doug: An evil spirit, yeah.
Stanley: Okay, but what the Scripture says is “Samuel said” in many occasions in the situation. Is there any other Scripture that states where it’s not the person but yet they’ll say, “The person said” as if it’s not the person? I don’t know if you understand what I’m trying to say there.
Pastor Doug: I do. I think I do understand what you’re saying. You’re probably not going to find another example in the Bible where the person’s name is used but it’s really someone who is… that is impersonating them…
Stanley: Okay…
Pastor Doug: …because this is the only time in Scripture I know of that you’ve got a scenario where a witch conjures up a medium, or a medium conjures up a spirit.
Stanley: Okay.
Pastor Doug: So, when it says, “Samuel said,” it’s obviously referring to this apparition of Samuel spoke. And that’s understood, I think. Part of the confusion comes in when you translate from Hebrew to English. It might sound to us like, “Well, this must have been Samuel.” But in the Hebrew mind, the way they would write is this apparition that is claiming to be Samuel— and they summarized that by saying, “Samuel said”— and there’s an irony to it.
Stanley: Because, like, you know, the situation. You know, Saul disguised himself.
Pastor Doug: Yeah.
Stanley: But it still gave you that “Saul said.”
Pastor Doug: Right.
Stanley: You know what I mean?
Pastor Doug: Right.
Stanley: He didn’t give it to him in a perspective of, like, on the witch’s perspective to say, well, “a stranger said.” But rather, says “Saul said,” you know?
Pastor Doug: Well, yeah. You got to keep in mind, first of all, God said that witches were to be put to death. Secondly, you can’t… it’s dangerous, I think, to believe that the devil has power to resurrect a saved…
Stanley: Yeah, that’s true.
Pastor Doug: …person. Samuel is obviously a saint and a prophet and a priest. And to think that he could be brought back by a witch that serves the devil…
Stanley: That’s… yeah, yeah! [Laughing]
Pastor Doug: …there’s a real problem with that.
Stanley: That’s true. Yeah.
Pastor Doug: And then, you go to the New Testament and it says, “Don’t be deceived, the devil can transform himself into an angel of light.”
Stanley: Angel of light.
Pastor Doug: And that his ministers can also appear as ministers of righteousness. Now, that’s an exact example. And then, of course, in Revelation 16, “His spirit say, ‘Come out of the mouth of the beast, dragon, and false prophet. Go forth to the kings of the earth and perform miracles to deceive.’”
Stanley: Perfect! Yes, yes.
Pastor Doug: So, there’s a lot of evidence that devils do impersonate, they deceive, and that was exhibited there in Samuel. Hey, we’re going to have to take a break, Stanley. You know, I appreciate your question. It’s a good one.
For our listening friends, this is just that. We are going to take a brief break. We are coming back with another half an hour packed with Bible questions. If you have not yet checked out the Amazing Facts website, I’d invite you and encourage you to log on to amazingfacts.org or even amazingfacts.com, lots of free resources there for you to take advantage of.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Pastor Jëan Ross: Welcome back to Bible Answers Live with Pastor Doug Batchelor. This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible-related question, you can call us from 7 to 8 P.M. Pacific Standard Time on Sundays and receive clear, honest answers directly from Scripture. Call 800-GOD-SAYS; that’s 800-463-7297. Now, please join us as we look to God’s Word for more Bible answers live with author and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Doug: We are back, friends! This is Bible Answers Live and if you have just tuned in, this is a live, international, interactive Bible study and we’d invite you to call if you have a Bible question. We still have one or two lines open and that’s a free phone call. It’s 800-463-7297, that’s an acronym for 800-GOD-SAYS because the Bible is the book that we’re listening to here and we want to find out what the Word says. My name is Doug Batchelor.
Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross and let’s go to the phone lines. Eric is listening on WOCG from Huntsville, Alabama. Welcome to the program, Eric!
Eric: Yes. How are you doing Pastor Doug?
Pastor Doug: Good!
Eric: I just had a quick question on 2 John chapter… I mean, verses 10 and 11. I just want a clarity on that. Is that suggesting we ought to be exclusive or, can you expound that a little bit, please?
Pastor Doug: Yeah. Let me read that for our friends— 2 John verse 11, “If there come any unto you and they bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house neither bid him Godspeed. For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker in his evil deeds.” I think John is just saying that there are people out there that deliberately are teaching heresy. And if people are out preaching and advertising, spreading a counterfeit Gospel, we should not bless them on their way because then, we become an accessory to the lies that they’re spreading. It’s not really saying…
Eric: Okay.
Pastor Doug: …that we should be exclusive. It’s just saying that… well, I guess we are challenged to be exclusive in a sense. Not that we’re to exclude sinners because we’re supposed to take the Gospel to sinners. But those that say they’re Christians that are preaching lies, we should not be supporting and encouraging them…
Eric: Okay.
Pastor Doug: …or endorsing them because, like I said, then we become an accomplice of their lies.
Eric: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Alright.
Eric: Thank you very much!
Pastor Doug: Thank you. Good question.
Eric: Yes, thank you very much, Sir.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Anthony is listening on WMCA from Brooklyn, New York. Welcome to the program, Anthony!
Anthony: Thank you very much. At what point in the life of Jesus’s earthly existence did He come to the conclusion in His human nature He was God incarnate?
Pastor Doug: Good question. I can only speculate. I have read a good commentary that implied when He was 12 years old, He makes that first trip to the Temple. And He’s in the Temple and He’s asking questions and answering questions of the scholars there. When His parents come looking for Him, and they said, “We looked for You everywhere.” And He says to them, “Wish you not I must be about My Father’s business?” It seems like when Jesus went to that Passover when He was 12 years old, He had an epiphany that He was the Lamb of God that was portrayed by that Passover Lamb and that He was the Son of God. And I’m inclined to agree with that. I think that He was 12 years old when He really understood what His life mission was because, you know, He said to His parents, “Wish you not I must be about My Father’s business?” and he wasn’t talking about Joseph. He was talking about His Father in heaven and He had understood what His calling was at that point.
Anthony: Great! Well, thank you very much.
Pastor Doug: Alright. Thank you. Good question.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Roy is listening on WMCA from New York, New York. Welcome to the program, Roy!
Roy: Oh, good evening, gentlemen!
Pastor Doug: Evening!
Roy: I’m a little confused on the… when the people of Israel were in exodus and it was talking about they didn’t have the flesh in the manner and all?
Pastor Doug: Yes.
Roy: And in verse 6:13… 16:13, “It came to pass that even the quails came up and covered the camp and in the morning, the dew lay about which turned into manna,” or whatever. It doesn’t say how long that lasted and then in Numbers, there’s another mention of quail. I was wondering how long the quail was in the first instance.
Pastor Doug: Well, you know, this is a good question because I’ve wondered that, too. The manna lasted from Exodus 16 until they reached the borders of the Promised Land because, if I’m not mistaken, when they got to Jericho, then it says, “The manna ceased and they ate the food that was in the land.” They had the food that was in the surrounding region from the harvest. So the manna sustained them all through the wilderness until they reached the borders of the Promised Land and it ceased there when God basically brought them to the gates of the Promised Land.
The quail, I don’t believe, showed up every day. It seems like that may have been seasonal because at first, they’re eating the manna and just the manna. They complained that, you know, they want the flesh parts of Egypt. God gives them quail ‘til it comes out of their nose…
Roy: But that was in Numbers. In Exodus, they just… they were talking about they didn’t have anything and so, that’s when He gave them the bread and the quails. And then later, they’re saying that they’ll just have manna. So I was confused.
Pastor Doug: Well, that’s what I’m saying. The quail did not seem to come… they received the quail later at— and you find that, like you said, in Numbers. But the quail evidently came seasonally.
Roy: Oh, okay. So, in other words, that happened in Exodus and in Numbers.
Pastor Doug: Yes. And I don’t believe they had quail twice a day or every day. The manna we know fell 6 days a week.
Roy: Yes.
Pastor Doug: They gather twice as much on Friday to sustain them through the Sabbath. The quail came as a result of their complaining about just having manna but I don’t think that it came through the whole 40 years.
Roy: Yeah. I just… because the way it was written, I got a little confused because in Numbers, which was later, they complained just about manna. But in Exodus, they’re talking about quail and manna. So, I’m thinking maybe the quail came and stop and then it happened again.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Well, of course, you got in Exodus 16:13, talks about quail and in Numbers 11 but the event is the same. A lot of what happened in Exodus…
Roy: Yeah! That’s what I was wondering about.
Pastor Jëan Ross: …were repeated in the book of Numbers.
Pastor Doug: Yeah, and Numbers is going back and rehearsing the experience.
Roy: Because the way I read, Numbers was a little late. It was [inaudible 00:36:44]. So I… and the first one before Sinai.
Pastor Doug: That’s right.
Roy: So I was confused with the timeline.
Pastor Doug: Yeah, well, what Moses does— and especially in Deuteronomy— he goes back and he rehearses the history to the people. Hope that helps a little, Roy.
Roy: Okay. Thank you.
Pastor Doug: Thank you.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Sherry is our next caller listening on WIHR from Jamestown, New York. Welcome to the program!
Sherry: Hi! Hello? Can you hear me?
Pastor Doug: Hi! How can we… yes, we’re… you’re loud and clear! How can we help you, Sherry?
Sherry: Okay. I was wondering about the Scripture in Luke and it’s about Christ when He came back after His death and He says, you know, He’s told them like on verse 39, you know, “It is Me. The spirit do not have flesh or bones,” right?
Pastor Doug: Right.
Sherry: Okay. I was wondering when He come back the second time and we become resurrected, are we going to be in the flesh, too?
Pastor Doug: Well, the Bible tells us that we will have bodies like unto His glorified body in the resurrection— that’s in Philippians.
Pastor Jëan Ross: And also in 1 John 3:2. We shall be like Him.
Pastor Doug: Yes. And so…
Sherry: Okay.
Pastor Doug: …the kind of body that Jesus had in His resurrection…
Sherry: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: …it is a glorified body but glorified bodies are not spirits or ghosts or vapor. They’re real. And so, we will have glorified bodies like His glorious body but they’re real bodies because it says in the New Earth, we plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them.
Sherry: Okay.
Pastor Doug: And when Jesus rose from the dead, He ate in front of them. He said, “Touch Me, feel Me. A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see that I have.”
Sherry: Oh, so…
Pastor Doug: In case it obviously say “flesh and blood,” it doesn’t say that.
Sherry: …pretty much like we are right now. We still eat, we have to bathe, we have to go to the restroom and to brush our teeth.
Pastor Doug: Well, no. It’s going to be different. Just keep in mind that when God first made Adam and Eve, that was His perfect plan, right?
Sherry: Yes?
Pastor Doug: They were real beings. They planted things, they worked in God’s Garden, but there was no sin. There was nothing defiling at that time. They had glorified bodies that had garments of light. After Adam and Eve sinned, these garments of light went out. They lost the glory. We will have glorified bodies again that will live in four dimensions. See, Adam and Eve, after they sinned, they can no longer talk to God, they couldn’t see angels. The glorified body lives in all four dimensions. Right now, there’s angels around you, Sherry, and here in our studio. We can’t see them because of our sin. But when we get our glorified body and those enhanced perceptions, we’ll have immortal bodies and we will live in all four dimensions. We will see the angels around us and that’s all that means. It doesn’t mean that we’re ghosts sitting on clouds or spirits.
Pastor Jëan Ross: And of course, we…
Sherry: So that means…
Pastor Jëan Ross: …when Jesus comes, He takes us to heaven and we know that, you know, there’s no air in space. So there’s going to be something special about these bodies that we’ll receive that we’ll be able to live and thrive even on our journey back to heaven.
Pastor Doug: I thought He gave us space suits. No.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Or air bubble around the cloud.
Pastor Doug: Oh yeah, something… that’s right. Okay, Sherry, thank you.
Sherry: Okay, bye.
Pastor Doug: Appreciate your question. Bye-bye.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Lance is listening on WOCG from Huntsville, Alabama. Lance, welcome to the program!
Lance: Thank you very much. My question is, if you could hand the answers for me, why in Daniel 1:1 does it say that Nebuchadnezzar came up in the third year of Jehoiakim but in Jeremiah 25, Jeremiah’s talking about the fourth year of Jehoiakim, which of course, you had Nebuchadnezzar? That makes sense?
Pastor Doug: Yes.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: There were two times that Nebuchadnezzar came to Jerusalem.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: The first time he came and he carried off Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego or actually, Hananiah…
Pastor Jëan Ross: Mishael.
Pastor Doug: …Mishael, and Azariah were their Hebrew names. Jehoiakim had agreed or his brother had agreed to serve Nebuchadnezzar and he came back, if I’m not mistaken, a year later. He had to leave suddenly because of the death of his father and he was really not the king yet. And he came back again, and so there were kind of two comings of Nebuchadnezzar to Jerusalem. The first time, it was somewhat peaceful. He carried away a number of captives to serve but he allowed Jerusalem to continue with their own king as long as he promise to pay taxes.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Well, eventually, Zedekiah who was the brother of Jehoiachin rebelled and Nebuchadnezzar came back 11 years later and destroyed the Temple and decimated the city, burnt it with fire. But there was more than one occasion.
Lance: Okay. So he came back within a year’s timing?
Pastor Doug: I think I understand that there was a… the death of his father and he had to quickly flee to take the throne and then he came back a year later.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Now, if you have a Bible that has footnotes, or if you go online, you’ll often find the commentators especially address these discrepancies because people ask these questions a lot and I’m doing this from memory now, so hope I’m getting that right.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Okay?
Lance: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: Does it sound right to you, Pastor Ross?
Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes. The first invasion was around 605 B.C. that he came. And then he took Daniel and his three friends. And then it was, I believe, about a year later that he came back. And then the third time was the destruction of Jerusalem that came that given the time…
Pastor Doug: Yeah.
Pastor Jëan Ross: …I forgot, 11 years after, you mentioned?
Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, I know that the city was besieged for… it was in the 11th year of Zedekiah; finally, the city broke through. So, I hope that helps and keep in mind the dating methods sometimes were awkward because instead of having a uniform universal dating method like we have today, they dated things based on the reign of different kings and sometimes they would not know how to measure the reign of those kings because, you know, they’d begin to reign while their father was still alive. Solomon began to reign while David was still alive. He was coronate while his father was alive so some measured it from his coronation; others measured it from the death of David.
Lance: Right.
Pastor Doug: So, it gets confusing, I know.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Alright. Hey, thanks. I appreciate that, Lance.
Lance: Okay.
Pastor Jëan Ross: David is listening on WMCA from New York, New York. Welcome to the program, David!
David: Hi. I was thinking about a question. It might be a little complex. It’s more intellectual than anything. Within about a month, it’ll be winter time…
Pastor Doug: Okay.
David: …in the United States and in the Southern Hemisphere, there’ll be summer.
Pastor Doug: Feels like winter in Sacramento right now, but, go ahead [laughing].
David: [Laughing] My question is, during the extremes, let’s say, the areas near the north and south pole, there’s like 12 hours of darkness in the winter and 12 hours darkness… oh, I’m sorry…
Pastor Doug: It’s actually more than that. Yeah.
David: In the summer. So how would you keep the Sabbath… keep and observe the Sabbath during those times?
Pastor Doug: Well, actually, I don’t mean to correct you, but I think in the winter time, you may only have 4 hours of sunlight…
David: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: …in the Northern Hemisphere and likewise, in the Southern Hemisphere and it waffles back and forth from season to season between all night and almost all day with the exception of just a few hours depending on what latitude you’re at. And so, your question is, well, how would you keep the Sabbath?
David: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: Well, the Sabbath is obviously from sundown to sundown which would be 24 hours apart. The sundown is that your daytime is very short but it still comes 24 hours later.
David: Oh, really! Cool [laughing].
Pastor Doug: So, you know, it still takes… it doesn’t matter what part of the earth you’re on. It takes 24 hours for the earth to make a complete rotation on its axis. But you know, there are… you could ask a lot of good questions, you know, how do you keep the Sabbath if you’re in a space shuttle?
David: [Laughing] Right.
Pastor Doug: I just flew back from India…
David: Yeah.
Pastor Doug: …and I actually arrived because I crossed the dateline, I arrived in San Francisco before I left Hong Kong. And I was on the plane for, I don’t know, 11 hours. So, you know, sometimes you run into some strange things. I tell my wife I’m actually a year younger than I am because I took off once going to Australia and on the way home, I left on March 8th and arrived on March 10th. I guess on the way there, my birthday is March 9th and I just missed one entire birthday.
David: Wow!
Pastor Doug: So [laughing], you know, you can… and you say, well, you know, what do you do with the Sabbath? Sometimes you have some strange encounters with the Sabbath where you’re crossing the dateline. You have two Sabbaths back to back. Well, you’re going to run to that whether it’s on Saturday, Sunday, or I mean, it doesn’t mean the day of rest is a bad idea. It’s just some of the dynamics of modern travel.
David: Yeah. It’s very interesting because I was thinking about that question.
Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, they’re good questions but it, of course, it doesn’t subtract to…
David: Oh, yes. You could still keep 24 hours and back to your journey, it’s a national dateline. You can just, you know, try to see where it exactly is, basically.
Pastor Doug: Yeah.
David: Alright.
Pastor Doug: Pastor Ross?
Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, Pastor… yeah. Well, while you’re talking about the Sabbath, I was looking up here in a commentary about Nebuchadnezzar and his campaigns against Jerusalem.
Pastor Doug: Oh, okay.
Pastor Jëan Ross: And just to follow up on the previous question, I found something here in 605 B.C., it was Nebuchadnezzar that took Daniel and his three friends captive then he came back in 597 B.C. So about 7 or 8 years later and he took Jehoiachin as well as Ezekiel, the prophet, captive and then in 588— from 588 to 86— 586, Jerusalem was besieged and destroyed and that’s when Zedekiah and thousands of others were taken back.
Pastor Doug: Right. He was taken and ultimately…
Pastor Jëan Ross: So three main principal…
Pastor Doug: Yup.
Pastor Jëan Ross: …yeah, campaigns at about 8 years— 7 or 8 years— between the first one in 605 and 597.
Pastor Doug: Alright. Well, that gives us a commentary date. Of course, it doesn’t totally clear up the discrepancies between Jeremiah and Daniel because they only seem like they’re one year apart.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Right. And of course, like you mentioned, there are different calendars that are used.
Pastor Doug: They had the civil under the religious calendar. Yes.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Right. So which one they’re following. Okay, let’s go to Mike listening on WMCA from New York, New York. Mike, welcome to the program!
Mike: Hi! Good evening, gentlemen. Pastor, can I ask here a couple of questions? If a Christian is having severe financial difficulty, is it proper for a Christian to consider bankruptcy? Now, I know in the Old Testament, the Israelites are forgiven for their debts after what, 7 years?
Pastor Doug: Right, the jubilee.
Mike: And also, should a Christian be tithing if he’s having financial difficulties? Although I think I know the answer to that question.
Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, some Christians have financial difficulties because they’re not tithing.
Mike: Right.
Pastor Doug: But, you know, God promises to open the windows of heaven for us when we are faithful in returning the tithe. And I’ve never seen that fail. It doesn’t matter how destitute a person is. Even in prison, I know people that said, “You know, I’m going to be tithing on my meal.” And God would work a miracle and give them extra food. So I don’t know how God does it but that’s because He’s God. But if we trust Him, He’ll take care of us. Now, your question on bankruptcy, that, I believe should be a very last resort for a Christian. Obviously, there are situations where a business may fail. There are provisions made in the law and, you know, if you can do what you do— everything you humanly can to pay your debts as a Christian— if there is no other alternative, it should be a last resort, then I think file bankruptcy because you just totally unable to, you know, pay this business debts.
Mike: Right.
Pastor Doug: You also don’t want to do it not just because of moral or Christian reasons but it hones you through your life.
Mike: Right.
Pastor Doug: There can just be some practical problems with filing bankruptcy. It’s not… it’s never an easy way out. And, but you know, if people have to do that, I don’t want anyone to think it’s an unpardonable sin because I know folks who’ve been in situations where they were going to just have everything taken away from them because of a business failure if they had not done that.
Pastor Jëan Ross: I think there’s a difference between someone who just spends money that they don’t have…
Pastor Doug: Recklessly, yeah.
Pastor Jëan Ross: …recklessly and they needed to claim bankruptcy versus someone who really has something unexpectedly happen like an illness or a death and they can’t just financially…
Pastor Doug: Yeah, or they made a legitimate attempt to do business and it’s failed and they can’t pay the debt from the business.
Mike: Now, when you say tithing, are you saying 10% or it could be 5% or 6%? I mean, there’s no really percentage in the New Testament on tithing.
Pastor Doug: Well, the word “tithe” itself means “tenth,” the very word. A matter of fact, if you look in Genesis, Jacob said, “Of all that You give me, I will surely give a tenth to You.” And then his grandfather Abraham paid a tithe or a tenth of the booty from the war to Melchizedek. So there’s no question the word “tithe” means “tenth.” It’s just what the word “tithe” means. But you know, people give offerings of varying amounts. A person might do… their practice might be a 2% offering or a 5% offering, some people have given 20% offerings. But tithe is always 10%.
Mike: Okay.
Pastor Doug: And you know, otherwise, it’s like saying, “Can I pay a 2% tenth?” [Laughing] You know, the word “tithe” means 10%. In the New Testament, you don’t find tithe taught specifically because in the New Testament, the giving was much more than tithe. You read in Acts chapter 5, it says, “No man said that ought that he had is his own but they had all things in common. And they sold their houses and lands and laid it all down at the apostles’ feet.” They were giving much beyond tithe. Tithe is a sort of a minimum that you find in the Old Testament.
Mike: Right.
Pastor Doug: But the New Testament church was extremely sacrificial.
Mike: Okay, Pastor.
Pastor Doug: Thank you.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Michael is listening on WMCA from South Plain Field New Jersey. Welcome to the program, Michael!
Michael: Hi, guys! How are you doing?
Pastor Doug: Good! How can we help you?
Michael: I had a question in regards to, I think it’s 2 Samuel 24:24, in correspondence with 1 Chronicles 21 verse… it’s actually about David takes a census.
Pastor Doug: Yeah?
Michael: And he pays for that. God gives him a choice. He chooses… [inaudible 00:51:36] and then he comes across a guy threshing on a threshing floor and he’s prompted to buy the land.
Pastor Doug: Right. The threshing floor going in.
Michael: Yes. And in 2 Samuel, it says he pays 50 shekels of silver for it and in 1 Chronicles, it says he pays 600 pieces of gold. I’m just wondering about the Chronicle is adding to that or what’s that make about?
Pastor Doug: Well, you know, that’s a good question. There are several places in the Bible where you might find a discrepancy. Sometimes it’s in the age of somebody, like we just talked about, when something happened, or it could be in the price. Let me tell you, what I do know is that property that David bought to make the initial sacrifice to stave off this plague was this threshing floor that belonged to this gentleman, Araunah, later David bought much more of that area because this Temple of Solomon was built there.
Michael: That’s what I was thinking, yeah.
Pastor Doug: And so, the first price that he paid is probably what he paid right then and there just to use his threshing floor for sacrifice. When he realized that he saw the angel of God there and that God have heard that prayer, he thought, “This is the best area,” it was a big flat area on mount Moriah, which is where Abraham offered Isaac, and David said, “This is where Solomon needs to build the Temple,” and he bought the surrounding property as well which is today, that 13 acres where you find the dome of the rock.
Michael: Oh, cool!
Pastor Doug: So that piece of land was mount Moriah where Abraham offered Isaac. Later, it’s where David prayed and it was a threshing floor of Araunah, and he bought a small segment of it for that day. But I think he later bought the whole 13 acres, or what we would call 13 acres and the Temple of Solomon was there.
Michael: Okay.
Pastor Doug: Because you read later before David died, he made great preparation for that Temple.
Michael: Yeah. And in that, Solomon was in charge of building on that land. And I thought that at first. But I think there was actually… what was the man’s name that the threshing floor was owned?
Pastor Doug: Araunah. A-R-A-U-N-A-H.
Michael: Is it the same in Chronicles as in 2 Samuel? I thought his name was different. No, it is. It’s the same.
Pastor Doug: Yeah. It’s… well, sometimes you’ll find a variation of pronunciation. We might call someone Jack and the name is John in English— it’s the same person. It’s a nickname.
Michael: Yeah. I guess, it’s my NIV translation that has…
Pastor Doug: Oh, yeah. It’ll probably spell it different. Well, whenever you convert a word from, you know, Hebrew to English, there’s a few different ways you can usually do it. The letterings are all different so it’s difficult.
Michael: Oh, that’s great! I thank you for your information there…
Pastor Doug: Thank you very much! Good question.
Michael: …for your help and appreciation…
Pastor Doug: Learning as we go together.
Michael: Thank you. Great! God bless you, guys. Have a good evening.
Pastor Doug: Thank you. We have time for one more, Pastor Ross.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright. Shaun is listening on 3ABN from Illinois. Welcome to the program, Shaun!
Shaun: Thank you. Revelation 9:7 through 10, John is seeing a vision of locusts.
Pastor Doug: Yes.
Shaun: And he says the locusts look like they were horses prepared for battle and it goes on verse 9, I believe it says that…
Pastor Doug: “Breastplates as if they were breastplates of iron and the sound of their wings like the sound of chariots and many horses running.”
Shaun: Yes. Could this be instead of the insect, could he have seen apache helicopters, maybe?
Pastor Doug: Well, I’ll tell you that I do know people who believe that. A dear friend of mine, [inaudible 00:55:18], thought that the prophet was looking ahead in the future and he was seeing helicopters because they sound like locusts, you know, the chop-chop-chop-chop. I respectfully disagree with that.
Shaun: Okay.
Pastor Doug: I think that this is actually speaking of the historic battle of the Ottoman Empire and Islam against Christianity, which was in the western part of the ancient Roman Empire. When you look at some of the characteristics, it talks about them having hair like women. Well, the Muslim raiders, that’s what they had. It talks about fire coming out of their mouths, they were beginning to use gunpowder and cannon back then. That’s why it talks about the brimstone. And so, there’s a lot of similarities. There’s a book by Uriah Smith where he makes a pretty compelling argument that this was the Islamic invasion of Western Europe. Isn’t that what you’ve understood?
Pastor Jëan Ross: That’s right, yeah, and the crusades. It’s a book by Uriah Smith called, well, “Daniel and the Revelation…”
Pastor Doug: “Daniel and the Revelation.” Yeah.
Pastor Jëan Ross: Great resource.
Pastor Doug: I hope that helps a little bit, Shaun. You’ve asked a big question. And you could hear— I knew the music was coming.
Listening friends, that’s going to start winding up the time that we have for this evening’s broadcast and I know some of you are listening to this in the middle of the day— different parts of the world— and it’s replayed different parts of the week. But when we record it live, it’s a Sunday evening here in Sacramento. We appreciate your taking advantage of the many things we have available. Go to the website, amazingfacts.org, and you’ll find a lot of free resources under the library there. You can listen to these programs that are archived— some of the most popular questions. And if you’d like to donate and help us keep this program on the air, you can even do that right there online. We are faith-based, not supported by any organization or denomination, but just people like you who are blessed by the program.
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