Does the Bible support a pre-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture?

tim_garden

if you believe in a pre-trib rapture and it doesn't happen you 'd be angry (?) and MAY give up and become a part of the 'falling away' On the other hand if you were to believe in a post-trib rapture & it didn't happen because a pre-trib rapture happened then (presumably) you'd be whisked off, think yourself fortunate but/and surely wouldn't say, "Oh! Lord! Please don't take me I haven't been persecuted.
The pre- & post- trib rapture scenarios seem to me not to have the same equivalent awful moral consequence. What, therefore would be the best scenario for Satan to gain souls? The pre-trib rapture. So therefore AVOID that message. Sorry for a convoluted working out but i need all the help i can get, even if you don't. Tell me if i;ve shown faulty reasoning

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KathrynW

I would think that more souls would be gained in a pre-tribulation rapture only because people who know true, practicing Christians--but who aren't Christian themselves--would know that something did happen, that God called them up to Heaven, which would lead them to (hopefully) follow Christ. If a pre-tribulation rapture were to occur, and as a "Christian" you weren't called up with "the others" then you were never really a Christian to begin with. I think this would make you more likely to be a fervent follower of Christ. ...at least, I hope it would; especially knowing that you (I speak in 'general yous', so not YOU you, everyone as "you") would receive reprieve whenever you do die during the tribulation, or at the end of it...if you survive.

catherinejanning

I don't want to get hung up on this pre, mid and post tribulation debate . It seems to be so controversial with Christians. I see division among the brethren because of it. Lets do the work of Christ, MK 16:17-18.Love, save souls and just be ready period!

Anonymous

Without a shadow of a doubt, pre-trib.
Americans have become so ignorant of God's divine appointments, the feast days, we forget that the trumps were merely heralds for the Jews, and they could herald any number of things, whether it be battle or the feast days, which are the 'seasons' the signs in the heavens are for, Gen 1:14. One of these signs comes up on the feast of trumpets this year, Sep 23, 2017, the Rev 12 sign, the birth of the church which was conceived on Pentecost by the Holy Spirit.
A proper understanding of the Hebrew and Greek as well as the feast days fulfilled by Jesus Christ tells us the next feast to be fulfilled is trumpets, and that's the rapture of the church. The tribulation is for Israel, who must be atoned for after the rapture of the church she birthed. She will be unclean one prophetic week per Levitical law. Remember Daniel's 70th week? Isaiah's labor pains on a pregnant woman? Revelation? Hello! Let scripture interpret scripture!
In that time, we'll be in heaven! The bride becomes the wife! And one more hint. Hebrew weddings last a week! ;)

Anonymous

There is no way there is a post rapture , how do Christian's survive without taking the mark of the beast ??? The Bible says Jesus will
Come when nobody expects it , with a post tribulation you would know the exact day 7 years into the tribulation , this is all common sense , pretributation is the only way !

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4 years ago

jorex

well said

Anonymous

Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24. He said in the Last day not the last days. Read John 11:24 Martha knew about the resurrection in the Last DAY.

jim_bart

So your comment on (364DoM) post, He said Americans have become so ignorant of God's divine appointments, then he said we would know when Jesus was coming if it's pretrib, he said "Jesus Christ tells us the next feast to be fulfilled is trumpets, and that's the rapture of the church." Then you said, There is no way there is a post rapture, The Bible says Jesus will
Come when nobody expects it. LOL. You can't have it both ways. this is all common sense.. Haha, thats your words too. Jesus only mentioned one coming, one rapture, and it's after the tribulation of those days,
Revelation 20:4 says, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
(Ready).. and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ..
They were on the earth during the great tribulation, they did not receive the mark and were resurrected at the end. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev.19 when Jesus came back they were resurrected. And please don't tell me these are Tribulation saints, unless you can show me where God Himself specifically said it.. Because that is a man made non biblical statement made up to support pre trib with no sound scripture to back it up. God Bless

Anonymous

You actually wouldn't know the exact day because scriptures only refer to general times from which you could judge from. You would know that his return comes after the man of lawlessness is revealed and shortly after the 7 year period. That's as close as you could get.
Every single pre trib teaching uses conjecture of the scriptures to reach its conclusion.
Let's imagine that the mark of the beast is being doled out and they come to your house. You refuse the mark claiming that you are Christian. The man giving out the mark begins to try and reason with you saying something like: "This isn't the mark of the beast. If it was, you would have been raptured out already. Isn't that what the Bible says?"
The answer to his question is NO. That is actually the opposite of what the scriptures teach.
The last day. The last trumpet.
Read every passage that refers to the transformation of beleivers and the day of the Lord, including the one in Zechariah (14?). It is clear that the second coming is the judgement of the world as well as the rapture/ressurection event. All things are made new after the Lord comes. It is called the last day because all things are made new after. There will be no more day or night, no more cold or heat. The old order of things has passed away.

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jw_salthouse

Is the LAST trumpet the last or NOT?

dawuanmcgowan

I have to disagree the Bible says that then shall great tribulation come upon the world none like no other and that no flesh not Christians not believers but no flesh shall be saved but for the elects sake which is us or days shall be shortened we will go through tribulation for 3 1/2 years not all 7

donovanedwardslewis

Evan the rapture is in deed post tribulation. Matthew 24 verse 29 - 35 clearly tells us that Jesus does not return until after the tribulation.

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Anonymous

Matthew 24:31 states that after the tribulation Christ will gather his ELECT. This is the third coming of Christ and is only for the elect, his chosen people - Israel. All other believers will be “caught up” before the tribulation at the second coming of Christ - the rapture.

Anonymous

The Rapture is post-tribulation.
I suggest you start with Matthew chapter 24. This chapter is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving us the sequence or order of end time events, as they are to occur, without giving us any dates. Notice how through out the chapter Jesus says over and over "and then", "when", "after", "and then", he is giving us the order of events. If there were a pre-tribulation Rapture it would be around verse 8 but definitely before verse 15, which occurs in the middle of the 7 final years of this age. A pre-tribulation Rapture is not there. However, Jesus clearly tells us the place or order that the Rapture will occur in verses 29-31. This is the Rapture. Don't let anyone rob your heart and mind of this truth by giving it an erroneous interpretation, to protect the error of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Every verse after this is referring back to verses 29-31 and they are all Rapture verses. So verse 29 say the Rapture will occur "immediately after the tribulation of those day" referring back to verse 21 which is where we get the term "Great Tribulation" from in the first place.
This is just one of many passages of scriptures that teach, not speculate, but teach us that the Rapture is post-tribulation.
God Bless, Pas. Greene

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KathrynW

But where does it say that Jesus' second coming is actually when the rapture happens? Doesn't one of the Corinthians say that the heavens will open and God will call His people up to Him before any of this happens??

dawuanmcgowan

Thank you I keep telling ppl it says immediatly after the Tribulation shall the son of man appear and his angels shall gather the elect we the believers of Christ because the Bible states that nor Greek not Jew that we're all the elect I think that's where the great falling away will come because of this doctrine

Anonymous

Amen --the church is confusing Gods wrath and tribulations-- wrath is for the unbelievers, believers can and if still alive go thru tribulation

Anonymous

Hello..I am confused about somethings. First..I was told my entire life that the rapture would proceed the tribulation. Today there's pre..middle ..and post tribulation beliefs. I have read on these beliefs and all seem to make some sense. Now I am left unsure. How can I know the truth?Secondly...I fear that if we still are holding on to any self will sins at all like smoking..or anger..or swear now and then..or anything that God does not approve of.(even though we've been saved and believe) that we will not make he rapture. So therefore I think..I guess that we can have no sins going on at the time of the rapture.Who then could be acceptable for God to rapture. How can we be completely without sin in order to be takin up in the rapture. We are all growing and maturing spiritually..some have more to get right than others..but if we believe and are trying to overcome but struggling in some areas of sin will/does God still see us as His..chosen..saved..because he died for our sins past present and future and we accepted him and trust Him and made Him our Lord and savior. Bottom line..Do we have to be completely free of sins to be saved and taken up should the rapture come..or not
I am confused and live in fear because I don't understand this.
If you could help me understand this I would be so grateful.

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Anonymous

Robin,
We cannot earn our salvation. It is a free gift. Faith in Christ will save you not your works. There is still sin even with our new nature. It doesn’t just go away the moment we are born again.. it is a battle for the rest of our lives. One that the Holy Spirit will give you victory in. But works and your love are a testament to your salvation. If you continue to abide in the truth of Christ you will be seperated for his purpose and you won’t sin habitually. Read 1 John. Keep in mind works are not what gets you salvation (it’s merely evidence you’re saved) it’s only through faith in Christ’s redemptive work.

cindy_weeks

I too was taught pretrib but its a hoax. The bible clearly tells us the rapture is pretrib. Pray seek wisdom and let the Holy Spirit guide you. Dont be deceived by the feel good theology of pretrib. Jesus is more than worth dying for. We need to trust Jesus now more than ever. Pretrib was concocted by proponents of the New World order to keep Christians week so they don't pray. They know how powerful God is so they have sought to destroy Gods power so they won't be defeated. Christians today are the martyred tribulation saints. Jesus blood washes away all our sins. Yes we must repent but it is Jesus blood alone that saves and redeems us. Stay strong in Jesus and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous

There are 3 main veiws on this issue, but one rule that satisfies them all.
The 3 veiws are this: Pre trib, mid trib and post trib. All 3 of these are mutually exclusive of one another, meaning that no two of these could be true simultaneously. 2 of these veiws are absolutely false doctrines.
If you stay ready for the Lord, but are are prepared to hold fast to the end, you can't go wrong. You stay ready for the Lord always because regardless of the rapture, you never know when your number will be up on this earth. A plane could crash into your house in 2 min from now theoretically. You also prepare yourself to hold fast until the end. Prepared to give up everything for Christ. This is what we are all called to anyway. We must be completely willing to give him anything and everything in our lives. That may also include all of your physical belongings. Houses, property... everything. Everything that we do in this life ultimately should be done by faith, in reliance on God.
We all sin and fall short at times. This is why Christ's sacrifice was made. Fear not. Hold fast to the Lord. He will set you free from bondage. Keep growing and learning.
Ultimately the rapture doctrines have no effect on salvation for true believers. This is an issue in the church because 2 of these doctrines are definitely false teachings and they actually pervert the Gospel and Satan can use false teachings gs to try and deceive, and destroy.
We should fully study and find ourselves approved before the Lord. Incapable of being decieved by evil or the unspiritual teachings and minds of men.
Peace

AFacts_Editor

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Anonymous

There WILL be people who have accepted Christ during the Tribulation period thanks to the 144,000 preaching, and THAT's who Revelation 7:14 is talking about. The church and the Bride of Christ will already be removed from earth and will be in Heaven with Jesus before this happens.

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Anonymous

false rev 7:14 says that that multitude in heaven was made up of all nations kindreds and tounges. the 144,000 are all jews thats one nation and one tounge and one kindred not many

Anonymous

Noah didn't have Jesus blessed hope. JESUS DIED AND SHE'D HIS BLOOD so we would be saved.

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KathrynW

Bosom of Abraham.

W8n4H1m

Question for any post-trib believer:
Who or what are the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 (and several other places), from a post-trib perspective?

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Anonymous

People use human logic without knowledge so often in this realm. Most people don't understand that if the elders are the glorified souls of human beings, that it wouldn't speak at all to the time line of rapture. There are Glorified souls of dead human beings in the presence of God right now and the Rapture hasn't happened yet. That is because the human timeline, chronologically, is not something that the eternal is subject to. Meaning that the battle has already been won. The souls were, are and will be saved simultaneously. Was and is and is to come. It is the human perspective that assumes the chronological.
I yell you the truth. If you are truly saved, your soul is already in glory. It has always been, even though you are here now. Your chronological experience will end at your death and you will then be beyond past present and future.

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KathrynW

Interesting. My cousin has the same theory. We (and anyone else who has chosen and accepted Christ as their savior and redeemer) will already be at the end when we die. 🤔🤔🤔 Very, very interesting theory...

Anonymous

The 24 elders aren't explained in Johns vision. Only that they give glory to God and are seated around the Throne, in the midst of Cherubim.
Conjucture and specculation about them is erroneous and most likely incorrect, as only one who has experienced a massive depth of vision into God's Kingdom would know for sure.
Creating doctrines out of these elders is futile at best

Anonymous

So it's obvious we must be born again. Give us barabus that's who they called for, which means Give us another Jesus!!!! Even John the one who baptized Jesus didn't understand the great change that was taking place!!!! But The Lion of the tribe of Judah did.

Anonymous

Jesus told many that by seeing they could not see, and by hearing they could not hear!!!!!

seymorephilmore

Perhaps there are two raptures. After all, there were two in the Old Testament. The first was a non-Jew (Enoch) and the second was a Jew (Elijah). Revelation chapter 14 certainly mimics the events described in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4:15-17. The scripture of the first being last and the last being first may apply. It is certain that the Church will not be here during the great tribulations as that is when the wrath of God is poured out on those that have rejected Christ. Some of these are Jews and God will deal with them during this 7 year period also know as the 70th week of Daniel.

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Anonymous

The example of Enoch you gave is false. He lived for about 365 years before being sent to heaven. The flood wouldn't happen until hundreds of years later. Why would you get raptured before the Flood if it doesn't start until hundreds of years to come.

Anonymous

The word "rapture" isn't in the Word. Yes "taken" (English), "harpazio" (Greek) is in the Word and it is a VERB, not a NOUN. The word "rapture" was created by man as an event (noun) at the same time the term "second coming" was coined. These terms were coined with the agenda to divide the singular return of Christ. Paul calls the event, "the resurrection of the dead" ...see 1 Cor. 15:42-54. Job, which was written prior to the Jews and the Greeks, informs us that, "man lieth down and does not rise again until the heavens are no more." ...see Job 14:12. In other words, the destruction of the heavens must occur prior to a catching away. 2 Peter 3:10 informs us that Jesus comes as a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed. Jesus tells us that when the heavens are destroyed, "OF THAT DAY, no man knows the day or the hour.." ...see Matt. 24:35,36. Rev. 20:4,5 informs us that those who are martyred for not taking the Mark of the beast are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection of the dead. Jesus also informs us that when the heavens are destroyed, "look up for your redemptions drawth nigh." ...see Luke 21.
It is certain that we are not appointed to eternal wrath (ergo, Greek for wrath), but to salvation and forever living with Him. God's wrath (ergo) is defined in John 3:36, and Rev. 14:10 as eternal and not temporal as you suppose. God's anger (thymos) often translated wrath in English is different as we see in the bowl/vial judgements. Daniel's 70th week shows that the sacrifices and offerings end. They ended in 70 AD in the middle of a 7 year war called the Roman Jewish war that started in 66 AD and ended in 73 AD with the fall of Masada. Never in the Word does it ever indicate that the sacrifices and offerings will ever restart. Thus a 7 year futuristic tribulation period is only substantiated by a completely already fulfilled prophesy. Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all time. A futuristic idea of 7 years based on a singular verse is complete conjecture.

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KathrynW

Are you implying the "second coming" already occurred? Sorry, just need clarification before I respond further.

valleystina

Excellent explanation.

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billybroadwater

Read Exposing the Fallacies of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Anonymous

SCRIPTURES THAT DESTROYS THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE:
Rev. 21:9 is about The New Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife (Married already) of the Lamb (this is after the end of the Millennium, and start of the New Heaven and New Earth)
9 ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGEL who had the SEVEN BOWLS full of the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the BRIDE, the WIFE of the LAMB.”
(I hope we don’t have another bride in mind, like what pretribbers did to Matthew 24:29,30, making it the second rapture/resurrection, which they say is still an integral part of the first resurrection of Rev. 20. Jesus will get His Bride one time only, not several times)
Question:
Why does it have to be ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS WHO HAD THE SEVEN BOWLS, after he had done his tasked a thousand years ago, be the one appointed by Jesus to show to John the Bride? Why not one of the seven angels who had the trumpets, or Michael, or Gabriel, or any other Angels? Have you wondered why is this angel worth mentioning in introducing the Bride to John?
Answer:
Checkout Rev. 16:12-15
12 THE SIXTH ANGEL POUR OUT HIS BOWL on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold I come like a THIEF (to snatch or steal away)! BLESSED is the ONE who stays awake (WISE VIRGINS?) and remains clothed (OIL/HOLY SPIRIT/ROBE), so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Matthew 22
Question:
Why this sudden insertion in the execution of the Sixth Bowl Judgement and just prior to the punishment of the Great Whore (opposite of the Bride) and prior to Armageddon? What is the relevance of this passage in the coming chaotic and troublesome scenario?
Answer: So Obvious. Unless Jesus just wanted to mention it for no reason at all.
To make the above more logically valid, here is another scripture to back it up:
Rev. 16:17-19
17 The SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his BOWL into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered BABYLON THE GREAT and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
Rev. 17:1
17 ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who had the SEVEN BOWLS came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the GREAT PROSTITUTE, who sits by many waters.
Here is the Logic:
The Sixth Angel who holds the Sixth Bowl Judgement introduced the Bride because he is the one who witnessed the resurrection of the dead in Christ and rapture of the alive in Christ.
The Seventh Angel who holds the Seventh Bowl Judgement introduced the Great Whore because he is the one who witnessed the punishment of the Great Whore/Babylon the Great/Mystery Babylon/Mother of Harlots.
After Jesus snatched his Bride, he then turned and deal with the Great Whore. Just rightly so isn’t it?
Boooom!!! There you have it, no amount of twisting or allegory can refute this scriptures.
God help us in this trying and deceptive end times.
eaglet

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Anonymous

Although I do not agree with a pre trib rapture, I find a flaw in your argument as it uses conjecture and supposition when you make conclusions about the sixth Angel. There is no evidence anywhere that would suggest that the reason the sixth Angel shows John the Bride is because the rapture happened in the time line of the sixth Judgement. You are using human logic and supposition.